Host and "Movement Meteorologist" Ejeris Dixon welcomes Marisa Franco, co-founder of Mijente.
Ejeris sits down with organizer, strategist, and Mijente co-founder Marisa Franco for a layered conversation about Latino communities, rising fascism and authoritarianism, and the political failures that brought us to this moment. Marisa breaks down why the debate over whether to call this fascism may matter less than whether movements can organize people around their needs, real consequences, and the futures they want to fight for.
Together, Ejeris and Marisa explore why MAGA and Trump’s “Mar-a-Lago politic” are resonating for some Latinos, the credibility crisis facing the Democratic Party, and shifts in Latino voting patterns. This conversation asks how we resist fascism without pretending “normal” was ever enough, and how we organize toward something people can actually believe in.
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The following is presented to you in around sound. It was recorded with whatever was lying around.
Marisa
After 2020, I mean, I remember putting out this op-ed and sort of saying like, hey, you won, but Latinos are sending you a warning signal. And to me, it was like, don't expect us to be reliably blue if we can't rely on you.
Ejeris
Hi friends, welcome to The Fascism Barometer. I'm Ejeris Dixon, your movement meteorologist. And The Barometer is an educational project where we learn together what fascism is, how to stay safe, and how to create democracy and liberation for all of us.
As a black queer feminist, I exist at the intersections of communities that fascists see as the enemy. And for a really long time, I have desired a way to help us understand and measure the threat of fascism and how it impacts all of us. We're so grateful for all of you that listen, and we're continuing our fundraising to support us to keep producing educational resources.
So please donate at our website, fascismbarometer.org. Now, when we talk about fascism here, we often talk about a far right, radically conservative, mass movement of people who've taken over the Republican Party. Fascists work to build power, recruiting people into their ranks, taking over parties, running for office, instilling themselves in leadership positions, ultimately to dismantle and manipulate government and society to reflect their beliefs.
And the Make America Great Again movement, also known as MAGA, has many similarities to fascist movements according to scholars. There's this one scholar, Jason Stanley, who calls fascism the politics of us and them. We can even think of it as the politics of us versus them.
So now fascists tend to believe that they should rule society and that their rightful place has been taken from them, and they see themselves as victims who are being persecuted. Fascist movements can exist everywhere, and they are led by people who are in the majority, but they see themselves as a soon-to-be minority, and they believe that they are fighting for their survival. So in this fight, they seek to eliminate marginalized communities, their opponents, and Democratic systems and practices in order to return to a past that never existed, where they believe they had ultimate power.
Now there's a lot to unpack here. We'll keep working on this definition throughout this season. So in each episode, we work to learn what fascism is and what we can do about it.
And as barometers measure pressure, we unpack the pressure that fascism puts on all of us. In this episode, we're continuing our focus on how fascist movements are operating in the United States, and who are the people that make up fascist movements, and how were they recruited. So as I'm looking at the barometer today, its reading continues to be very high.
There are escalating attacks on organizations and activists pushing back against fascism. We see the violence of Immigration Enforcement, or ICE, increasing. There's this continued war on Iran, and there are so many ways that the regime keeps mismanaging health issues, and it's concerning.
So yes, the fascism barometer is rising, but we're going to need all of us to navigate this storm. And as we've said before, fascism is best fought with massive amounts of people power. And that's what we're building together
Thank you for your work on educating yourself on fascism, and actively pushing back against it. Before we get to today's rich conversation on the rise of MAGA support within Latino communities, we have some updates from the news.
Welcome to the Fascism Roundup. In this segment, we talk about current trends in fascism in the United States. As usual, there's a whole lot happening, so everything we couldn't get to, we placed in the Resource Hub on our website.
Trump recently issued an executive order instructing federal officials to reduce the number of vaccines routinely recommended for children, and directing the Justice Department to challenge state vaccine laws that conflict with the administration's approach. He again made false claims that vaccines are connected to autism. And this is one of many efforts by Trump and Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to overhaul the federal vaccine schedule.
According to Reuters, medical organizations, including the Infectious Diseases Society of America, warned that these changes would expose more children to preventable illnesses and death. And this order comes after we saw an increase in measles infections recently for the first time since it was declared eliminated in 2000.
There's a history of fascist leaders who work to control formerly independent institutions and work to replace scientific expertise with political loyalty. And we're seeing that here. Additionally, General Todd Blanche was confirmed by the Senate as the new Attorney General.
The Attorney General oversees federal law enforcement and is the head of the Department of Justice, or DOJ, and serves as the legal advisor of the president. We also know that Blanche has been Trump's personal lawyer. And we've seen this before.
Fascists and authoritarians have a history of putting their personal attorneys or attorneys in their circles, in power to prioritize their individual interests over the countries. We saw this in Hungary with Viktor Orban, who had his personal lawyer represent his party in parliament. Now, while serving as acting Attorney General, Todd Blanche also accelerated investigations into Trump's opponents.
In recent news, federal prosecutors arrested the Southern Poverty Law Center's, or SPLC's, former Chief Financial Officer, Heidi Byrick. This arrest is in connection with this ongoing case that's been going on since April, alleging that Byrick oversaw a secret informant payment system used to place people inside white supremacists and other extremist groups. The prosecutors are claiming that the operation included deception in how the money was moved, false statements to banks, and they are accusing her of conspiracy to commit wire fraud, conspiracy to submit false statements to a federally-insured bank, and conspiracy to commit concealment money laundering.
SPLC and Byrick's lawyer are arguing that the DOJ is trying to silence its political opponents, and honestly, arresting opponents is a common practice within fascist governments. To intimidate people from speaking out and opposing the regime. We'll keep an eye on this for you as this case continues.
Also, ICE has been changing how it conducts immigration arrests at airports. Rather than relying primarily on arrests near TSA or Transportation Security Administration checkpoints, according to MSN, ICE has been making arrests at ticket counters and near gates and targeting immigrants with expired visas while their applications for green cards or asylum are still pending. Now, currently, airline officials are blocking ICE agents from boarding flights and refusing to give them access to client information in order to arrest immigrants.
But it doesn't stop here. ICE is also seeking to spend $20 million on thousands of gloves that can release painful electric shocks so that they can shock people during the arrest process. And y'all, this is horrible.
We know that repressive governments increase violence when community resistance increases. And we've been seeing lots of opposition and resistance to ICE. We saw similar tactics in apartheid South Africa, where past laws controlled where black South Africans could travel and work.
And additionally, there were mass boycotts and strikes and organizing against this practice. The government retaliated against this by escalating from arresting individuals into mass arrests, states of emergency, military-style policing, surveillance, and worse. ICE is ramping up its scare tactics, and we need to continue to oppose their violence.
Additionally, the Make America Great Again Coalition is showing some internal struggles. Former Fox News host Tucker Carlson has openly broken with MAGA and the Republican Party, criticizing leaders and saying that they are serving their own interests. Former US Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, Republican Representative Thomas Massey, and former director of the National Counterterrorism Center, Joe Kent, and others have joined with him, and there's discussion of forming a new third party or movement.
Fascist and authoritarian governments and leaders, honestly, can be unstable, and this can lead to fractures when they gain power. We saw this in Hungary, where Petr Magyar broke with Viktor Orbán's government, then built a new opposition movement and party, and defeated Orbán's party in a national election just a few months ago. These fractures can create opportunities for resistance movements.
It splinters the support of fascists, and it can be a chance to actually reduce the political power of rising fascism. In other news, a federal judge in Boston blocked the US. Postal Service from enforcing part of Trump's executive order to tighten mail-in voting rules before the midterms.
And we know that judges alone won't save us. But this is a critical development. And it couldn't have happened without the organizing and community pressure that so many people have built to challenge each attempt Trump has made to rig the election.
I'm beyond excited to welcome Marisa Franco to The Fascism Barometer. Marisa is the director and co-founder of Mijente, a digital and grassroots organizing hub for Latinx and Chicanax people. In her over 20 years of work as an organizer and movement builder, Marisa has helped lead key grassroots organizing campaigns rooted in low-income communities and communities of color, characterized by their innovation and effectiveness.
Now, Marisa and I met over 20 years ago at a training for organizers, and I heard her before I saw her. I could hear this person breaking down an organizing concept in a succinct, smart, clear, yet sassy way. It's my personal policy to be in conversation with the smartest people in the room, and Marisa brings us this gift of having broad visionary ideas and clear ways of explaining them to our movements.
Marisa co-founded Mijente around the time I started researching fascism, and watching the rise of fascist targeting of Latino communities and immigrant communities, my first thought was these fascists don't know who they're messing with. Under Marisa's leadership, Mijente has played a decisive role in electoral campaigns. Mijente was an early leader pushing back on the role of tech in rising fascism and authoritarianism, and in creating black and Latino solidarity through building power for Latino communities in all of us.
Marisa, thank you so much for joining us.
Marisa
Thanks for having me. It's good to see you.
Ejeris
I usually start with asking folks, scale of 1-10, 10 is full-on fascist. Where do you think we are on the fascism barometer and why?
Marisa
If this is like, if we were to start, just is this moment in the authoritarian form of leadership and governance? Yes, absolutely. I've seen people get very “eh” about naming a number, and I will be part of those ranks that it's very difficult to say a number.
I sometimes just felt like we're not going to be able to know or name what this is until this stage of it has passed. I do think that there are elements of the things that we're living through that resemble other parts of history, but I think this time is of its own. And I think that as uncomfortable as it can feel, I think sometimes like as activists, we think that once people are like, oh, it's fascism, Oh, damn, it's a five alarm fire. Let's all storm the stage. You know, that we'll realize how scary all this is, and somehow everyone will wake up and stop it.
And I'd put my barometer of believing in that closer to zero. I think that the reality is for some people, this is fascism. For some people, they've already lived through fascism.
I was really resonated with Kenyon's point that was made when you brought him on a while back where he talked about other times in US history that were fascist, particularly the Jim Crow South. I even thought sometimes we talk about, is the world ending. And then one day I was like, well, for some people at different points in history, the world has ended.
So I think we are soundly in deep authoritarian terrain here. And probably it is fascism in many different respects. I also think that what we're dealing with is of its own time and will have its own unique characteristics.
And we'll have to see when the dust settles and we're searching for the rebel who's left, we'll get to name what this exactly is. And I think it's incumbent upon those of us who are able to fight to be able to have that ability to name it and to have a role in what comes after.
Ejeris
That makes sense to me. There's a point where the battle of terms became less important than building the people power to stop it and to overcome it, and to recognize that all of us have lessons from repressive times, or many of us have lessons from repressive histories and repressive times. But I am really curious about the piece that you said about, if we say this word, I still don't think people will wake up.
What is your process of compelling people that this moment is critical to mobilize around?
Marisa
Material interest, I think, is probably, I think from a mass perspective, it's for people that have a particular target on their back. And there's a lot of they’ew doling out smoke to a lot of different people, a lot of different groups of people. So there are people then that that's a very clear concrete way.
And then I think there is the people that are watching. And then it becomes like a moral dilemma. It can become a question of consciousness.
And so it's both material interest and the process of education, which I think is rooted in that experience and those stories. But I think there is just the brass tacks of old school organizing of material interest. Like I haven't probably dove as deep in the historical Nazi Germany sort of chapter of fascism.
But I would venture to guess there was people whose lives probably didn't change that much. And that's crazy to say, because now we look back at the end and we imagine something calamitous in the umpteenth degree. And so that's also really disorienting of this time, because do I think stuff is looking hell of raw? Like stuff is going sideways?
Yeah, absolutely.
Ejeris
It's bad, it's bad out there, people.
Marisa
I think I've been kind of like struggling, like what do we get? What does that word mean to people? But to your question, I think it's material interest.
Ejeris
No, and what I understand, there are many people, at least in the Nazi Germany chapter, where things didn't change until they suddenly changed, and then things were like very bad. And so one of the ways that I was worried about this whole trajectory was like, oh, some people can be having horrible, horrific violence, and other people can be like, do-do-do, and then all of a sudden wake up, and there are more of us than them. And so there's actually an ability to out-organize them, but it's this staggering where different people can have different experiences at the same moment in time that can create a real organizing question.
But I want to hone in on one of the questions I really wanted to ask you, because this is the second episode in the series of why different communities of folks have either joined, I don't know, joining, it's not like they have membership cards, but have found a connection with the Make America Great Again movement, which has both characteristics of, well, fascism is a form of authoritarianism, but it has characteristics of fascism and authoritarianism. And after the 2024 election, which is now a little while ago, there are all these statistics on an increase around Latino communities voting for Trump, particularly younger Latino men. And from your vantage point at Mijente, what's your story around why people found resonance?
When essentially Trump started down the escalator, vilifying immigrants, vilifying Latino communities, how are people resonating with things that also are explicitly targeting them?
Marisa
So first, I think it's important just to give a snapshot of Latinos in the United States. Roundabouts, 64 million people, the vast majority draw their lineage from Mexico. Next would be Puerto Rico.
Then from there, probably like Central America, and then you have an increase of Venezuelanos. But obviously, they're not coming anywhere close to the Puerto Ricans and the Mexicanos in terms of numbers. So, 64 million in the last maybe, last presidential or the one before became the largest minority voting bloc.
I'm doing the air quotes.
Ejeris
We got air quotes happening.
Marisa
I'm doing air quotes because I recognize there's a lot of like about that. Because minority ethnic voting blank, it's like people are Latino be like, you're not a bloc. I don't know where you're getting from.
But in terms of like a group that is sort of demographically connected. One of the youngest, if not the youngest demographic. So, last I checked the median age was 27, which I was like, Saturn returns demographically, oh damn.
But 27 compared to a white person's median age in the United States was 43. And roughly 80%, four out of five Latinos are working class. It is a multinational group.
It is very regional to say like, I'm in Arizona versus I'm in New Jersey versus Florida. Very different. Obviously, a very significant mix around immigration, relationship to immigration.
Are you first generation? You're trying to say you're from the conquistadores. I don't know.
And most speak Spanish. So you'll have someone who's a Venezuelano that just came recently to someone who's been here, from an immigration standpoint, they're like a long time immigrant.
Then you might have people that are like, I've been here generations and my relationship to Latinidad is very, in addition to obviously race, significant. You have black folks, you have folks who are Indian, it's a mix and people define that in a myriad of ways. So it is a little complicated.
So that's the sort of overall picture. Historically, if you look at, you're talking 24, let's go to 2016, let's go to 2020. Let's go to Obama.
Latinos overwhelmingly supported both presidencies of Barack Obama. I was protesting them in some of his re-elections, but Latinos broadly, because he was deporting hella people. Then that support continued for Hillary Clinton in 2016.
In 2020, so everybody started, there was 24, all this stuff happened with Latinos. The signs actually were showing in 2020. You started to see shifts.
I would say, yeah 2020 had counties that had been for generations reliably Democrat in presidential races, where Barack Obama won almost 90 percent of Latino vote in some parts of this country. That whittled down. It wasn't necessarily a top line story coming out of 2020, I would argue, because it's probably in some people's interest not to make it a big story.
Then also because the Democrats won and they don't, it's like the numbers numbered, we won, chao chao, back from power.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Marisa
Then in 2024, they actually broke through. It was a gradual shift. After 2020, I mean, I remember putting out this op-ed and saying like, hey, you won, but Latinos are sending you a warning signal.
To me, it was like, don't expect us to be reliably blue if we can't rely on you. What happened in this last election, I feel like it's a conversation that's been had, but people are very frustrated with the economy, frustrated. You know the immigration story really did move some Latinos on the question of where immigration was at on all sides of it.
But I would argue, I also think there was a credibility crisis for the Democrats. I can speak more to it, but the thing that's important to understand, even when you look at 2024, I'll just close here, Democrats still won a majority of Latinos. The Republicans, their win number was that they had to just peel enough off, and they did that and then some.
There was this shift and then Latinos got blamed for all this stuff, but still the majority did vote.
Ejeris
Yeah. Where I get curious because some of this conversation was also happening, and there's obviously Afro-Latinos, but also in black communities, particularly around black men. And again, also, it wasn't that the majority of black men or black people voted for Trump.
It was that there was a shift, but that shift also was around communities. Either there's issues around information, there's people being taken for granted. So to what extent are people resonating with the actual politics of MAGA versus what are tactics around manipulation, what are tactics around information?
I want to hear more around this crisis of credibility. Our latest episode with Adrienne Evans talks a little bit about rural communities. And so I would love for you to talk more about the crisis of credibility and what is a political connection versus what are just kind of recruitment tactics?
Marisa
Also, just to say, full, like go at it. I feel like there's been so much conversation about what the state of black and brown unity is after the 24 election, or black folks like, what in the hell, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I can't, obviously I'm not claiming to represent 64 million people, but I've heard sometimes in different conversations, and I'm like, oh, it's juicy.
I would love to jump into that. I just felt like, oh no, it was this or it was that. So feel free to ask me them kind of questions.
Ejeris
No, I know you're the person I can't ask those questions. I also feel like the thing that is also happening is that like black people are asking themselves those questions.
Marisa
I just can't help myself. I'm just going to say it. I think that it's different than what's happening in Latino communities.
But one of the things I was going to say in terms of like, what is this particularity around Latinos and their choices? And what in the hell are y'all thinking? II think people were looking like, he had y'all's name in his mouth talking all this shit, and y'all still went voted for him?
Like what is wrong with you?
Ejeris
What is happening? That man hates you.
Why?
Marisa
And I think that there's a piece here around that I feel like this is not totally recognized is Latinos do not have the same story of struggle in the United States as African Americans do. And so I'll go more into that on the Latino side. But I think there was not as advanced fissures in the Democratic, like we got it on lock with black Americans.
But I think as the civil rights generation passes on, that fissure could potentially break open because people that have a very, they have a lived experience and then they have a story to that. There was like a way where like, I would say black voters are not confused that the Democratic Party doesn't always deliver. But they're like, I also know what the alternative is.
I also know the alternative is, and I'm going to vote because I know what it costs my community to earn the right to vote. Whether they were involved in the movement or not, as they pass on, new generations perhaps have that story in their upbringing, but their experience and their conditions will also have something to say. I would argue that the Democratic Party writ large should be paying attention to that.
I think there's actually a lot more to say. I get frustrated that because they're like, the numbers are still good enough for us to win, we're not going to actually grapple with what this means, that it gets moved to the wayside. But with respect to Latinos, I think one, like I said, it's not the same story of struggle.
I think there is a story of struggle. I think there is rich history of Latinos resisting in this country. I just don't think it's almost like a friend once said that the history is almost undocumented.
And so that story is unknown. So it's not to say that there isn't a story of struggle in terms of mass political struggle, but it's not as known. And I think obviously a racialized identity living under just like your everyday experience, that is different with Latinos.
And Latino sort of conception of ourselves inside of that scattering of a history and where you come from can be very... Aqui, ayá, who knows?
Ejeris
Yeah.
Marisa
There's more of like a DIY sentiment. There is elements of like that rugged individualism that sometimes just... Sometimes it's how people are, it's how the people think, but also it's some internalized isms that we have had of feeling ashamed and feeling like we have to like puff out our chest.
But that sort of like, we know the alternative that I think black voters might sort of have a little bit more sharply in the community doesn't exist in the same way with Latinos for a bunch of different reasons. And so to me, I think when 2020 happened, one of my takeaways, like I think that by and large, there is like this aspect of Latino community that is declaring their independence from partisan politics. And that is both probably inconvenient, inconceivable to some people.
But to me, I'm like, all right. Like I also I'm like, I appreciate that people are also calling bullshit on some stuff. And was I surprised, I was like, no, I don't.
Yeah, I was surprised. And I was like I don't know, you know. Like I was standing in 24 in my hometown.
That's, you know, I didn't see white people in that town till I was over 18 years old. It was like all Yaki, Mexican, Chicano. And there was a Trump table in the center of the town, which is like unheard of.
And when I have a really, really big family and one of my cousin's sons, he's a young Chicano dude, you know, wearing his work boots and, you know, probably watches UFC. I think he was probably voting Trump. And that was like, you know, made me feel a way.
But also I'm just like, how am I, you're constantly put in a position where you have to defend the Democrats. So let's just quickly talk about that. There's like the Latino context.
So with Democrats, I think you have to look at what was their program and what is their posture. And then there's like the vibes of the moment. And so, yes, there was, we can talk about the political context more.
But, you know, obviously people were really agitated about the cost of living, inflation. We'll do all of that. We know.
I remember like once Harris was in place as the candidate, she was talking about the cost of housing and all this stuff. But there was, it's like a very Democratic technical, like, I'm going to give you this program. And I think sometimes people just want to know, are you pissed?
Are you pissed as much as I am? Do you feel this? But what I think just damned it was people were really pissed at Biden.
Whether it's fair or not, that was unequivocally true. People did not think that he should run again. But she was put in a position and she also chose, she was like, do you agree with, would you do something different or not?
And she said, not. So yeah, like are people this, are people that, are they messed up, are they anti-woman? Probably, they're probably all the things.
But you know what, they're also looking for somebody that's talking some real. And she was just in a position like, and I don't know what I would have done. And that's what people need to clock about her potentially running now.
She's going to have the same question. So if you say, yeah, I agree with what Biden said, then people are going to be like, he's still unpopular. I'm still not voting for you.
But if she says, no, well, he messed up on this and this and that, guess what? People are going to be like, well, in 24, you didn't say that.
Ejeris
Exactly.
Marisa
And that's going to create chasms between our communities. But I'm just like, yo, that's some just brass tacks that people are going to look at. So there was something about the program, I think a posture from the Democrats that was like, everything's okay.
Look at the GDP, look at the job, but nobody gives a damn. Because when they go and they're trying to go get something done around there, what they live and what they have in their paycheck, this shit does not feel right. This is not good, this is not cool.
So then you have a program that I think just didn't really tap into what people's angry and feeling at the moment. Then the posture, I think one where the Democrats talk a lot of stuff, but people's experience, they don't do it. It's like they're operating on E for effort.
I tried, no. So Trump, they're like, I may not like everything he says, but I feel like what he says he's going to do, he's going to try it. He's going to be in a pool, in a china shop, and he's going to do it.
Now, where people are at now, I think is probably different, but I think there was the program of the party and the posture and the communication of the party. So when you asked, it's all those things. It's all those things that you talked about, and it made this elixir of Des Madre that got the result that came out.
Ejeris
So then the question is, if it was that Latino communities were enchanted with MAGA, and there are Latinos for Trump, this that and the other, then the fix is different than these systems are fucked up and the Democrats don't listen to us anyway. I get curious about what's the work of recruiting people into a politics that feels an alignment with what working class people need with social justice values, and I get curious about where people are at now. Because my guess is there's an aspect of folks being like, we didn't think it was going to be this bad, and where those conversations are lying.
So I'm just really curious around what are the steps forward to stop the level of harm that is happening and also help people participate in a politics that feels accountable to them.
Marisa
So I think there's a couple of other things I want to underscore before we get into description, in terms of description. I think dating back to 2016, Trump versus Clinton. One of the things that was most eye-opening to me, that surprised me then and it's continued to play out, is that working people, they don't actually just on GP hate rich people.
Because they aspire to do that. They think that is possible. And what rich means, like people have different definitions.
What they don't like is elitism. Is this like smug, I know better than you, I'm more educated than you, I'm looking down on you. And there's something that to me was coming up, I've been thinking a lot about over the just last few months with some different scenarios we were looking at.
And I started to kind of have this like Mar-a-Lago, it's a Mar-a-Lago politic. Because how is it like, I think from a movement, from one who's like, I know these systems, that we take a very systems approach and you look at what Trump's doing is that's racist. And yeah, it is, it's absolutely racist.
How does then this make any sense to someone who's like, you know, not white, right? Or doesn't pretend to be white or aspire to be white?
Ejeris
Yeah.
Marisa
And I think that to me, I started thinking about it like Mar-a-Lago. And what I mean by that is this idea of a country club. And it's a country club, so when you think of Mar-a-Lago, it's a resort.
And so to me, I think there's an aspect of MAGA and the allure of Trump that it's not that people of color are not allowed into Mar-a-Lago. And it's under this guise, and you think about it broadly beyond a resort, they frame it as merit. When we know deep down, it's not fundamentally about merit.
But when you see exceptions, there's exceptions and it's framed as merit, but there's exceptions. Trump likes winners, thinks the world is divided by winners and losers, winners and suckers. And so there are going to be people of color.
You look at the way he parlays with celebrities, with athletes. He intervened in the US and the World Cup. He called the president of FIFA to get a red card removed for a player, a black player, who is like a poster child of birthright citizenship.
His mother was visiting the United States, tried to go back to England. They're, I think, of Nigerian descent, and they wouldn't let her fly because she was like eight months pregnant. So he was born in the United States, was here for two months and bounced out back across the pond.
He just fought, he went all the way to the Supreme Court. He showed up at the Supreme Court and like, I don't want this birthright citizenship, take this shit out. But he went and he tried to get this guy.
Why? Because he's exceptional. Because who gets let in the club?
I think there's a part where people see that, and it's almost the rich versus the elite. It's like, you still have a shot. You still might get in to the club.
And so I think that those are aspects that whether one agrees with it or not, that's why people are not disqualifying. There's moments where people kind of permit or they don't see that as disqualifying of him because they don't feel like they're totally disqualified. That's, I think, a hard part for, I think, a movement or opponents of Trump to understand how that support is sort of, you know, there's some sort of equilibrium where people still kind of find, they give him a pass because they think that at some point they might get one.
So I think that piece around elitism versus making it honestly as a rich person, which obviously is also a fallacy because that fool was a millionaire by the time he was five years old. But I do think that's a big part in terms of like how people navigate their relationship to MAGA.
Ejeris
Then where I get curious is if it's not about what people are talking about around really believing that he's going to make the cost of living better, but it's instead this us versus them and people trying to get their shot into the us and believing like when he talks about the them, that's not me. That's not my family. That's not my people and I can be one of the us.
Then as I would say, some of that is breaking down, but not all of it. People could still be holding on to that to some degree. What is the organizing process?
One of the things Linda Burnham said is that for us to really build a liberated future, we have to push MAGA to the sidelines of society. I'm curious around recognizing all of these problems and questions with the Democratic Party, recognizing the hold on the Republican Party that MAGA has, the fraught electoral process. What's the strategy to build something that feels real to people when those concepts of us versus them aren't going away?
Marisa
I think this is where it gets obviously really hard. I think that whether it's in the form of the Democratic Party or whether it's alternative forms of parties, you've seen obviously the WorkingFamilies Party exists and has been in motion moving. You see the rise of prominence of DSA.
The reason I'm starting there is one thing I will say over and over again, we're talking Latinos, if you were to say right now, are people as pro-Trump or the people that voted for him as they were in 24? No. I think the people that didn't vote for him are still angry, still have not been moved, they're not joining.
And then I would say a sizable, significant number of people who voted for Trump in this last election have grown to regret that or do not plan to vote for him or his ilk in the next election if there is one. With that said, I think the challenge is it doesn't mean that they're convinced about the alternative. And so what we risk when you talk about fascism is you have this thing where people are voting against in the next election MAGA, but then who they chose is the same status quo business as usual.
The problems that people are having are staying the same if it's not getting worse.
Ejeris
Yeah
Marisa
So then someone comes and comes with that, who's the boogeyman, the program, the posture, taking advantage of the political moment and brings them back. And at some point, they're not going to turn over, that pendulum is not going to swing back. That is to be the threat because what remains is for elections to not happen.
And so people are not convinced on a big D Democratic Party of the alternative. And that is, I think, the challenge. And so one part is, like, what happens in the sort of apparatus or the vehicles that relate to running and holding public office.
And that is a whole huge question. But if we don't figure that out, we can mobilize all we want. But I would say sometimes you're in a position where you're selling something that you don't even believe in.
Like, I'm standing in that line and my cousin's kid is there, and I could do like the Tia wag the finger, but I'm too much of a... I don't know. It's like you asking me to sell some shit I don't even like, because I'm a political little animal.
And so I'm like, it's a hard thing to keep selling. And so I think that there's work that needs to happen inside of that context. And then I think on the community organizing side, it's a longer conversation, but I think that the mechanisms, there's some things that will remain to be true that I think are about the craft of organizing that remain the same.
But in terms of this idea where you're gonna go and pick a target and da-da-da-da, I don't know that it works that way anymore. I think we have to think of new ways to solve problems for ourselves. And I think the social justice movement and infrastructure is very built around this idea of policy change.
And some of us who have lived in red states for a long time understand the limitations of it. And I think now you're seeing it on a much more massive level. You know, so literally the function of government and the state is not working.
Our adversaries are not following the same rules. And the party that says that they represents us is dead set on following those old rules. Not only do we need to challenge and break the rules that need to be broken, we need to be willing to find new solutions.
I think it's a both and, but I do think that in some ways like our movement struggles to become a different shape to meet the moment. And so that impacts someone who's like, who gives a damn? Where is there a solution here?
I think that leads to just the increased kind of suspicion and apathy and disorientation that people feel because I think unaffiliated folks who don't have time perhaps to follow all the this and that, are looking around and it's hard to know who's real, who's effective, who's going to make some shit happen, and much less even offer an opportunity for one to get involved in that process.
Ejeris
So when I think about everything you're saying, I see this collection of short-term problems and long-term problems with long-term solutions, but a concern about how you match them up. So if we're talking about building alternatives, there is a way that there are people figuring out ways through mutual aid or through support, like how are people going to house each other, how are people navigating natural disasters. There are ways that you can do that and you can even start to build a large enough group.
But there's also this timeline with fascism and authoritarianism of not just taking over systems, but making systems irrelevant. Whether it's elections or agencies or any of these things, it's dismantling all of these systems and at a faster and faster pace. So we've got these collections of issues.
People are calling bullshit on things people should actually be calling bullshit on. You know, and wondering, are these parties even for me? Are these systems even for me?
And those are fair questions and those questions are happening like across a whole host of communities. And there are less harmful politicians. And there's also like a crew of more social justice politicians.
But I guess it's just like, how do you construct the pathway out from your perspective and from Mijente's perspective, knowing that to some degree, there's also a little bit of a ticking time bomb?
Marisa
You just have to walk it. There is no... Everything you're saying is true.
And that's just the challenge of this time. And I think it's going to be. And I would say this isn't just a US thing.
I think this... It's global. It's structural.
And I think... And it's part of why MAGA has broken through in the way it has, and it has spread. It's the post-World War II order is falling, is broken.
You have the extreme, like, wealth polarization is just, like, breaking. There is, like, this, like... You have the decay of neoliberal doctrine.
So it kind of relates to World War II order, like, some of the sort of agreements. The way things were set up is just not working. Obviously, then you add to that questions of war, questions of environmental, like, climate crisis.
And so there is something in the air that feels very unstable. And I think that's, to me, one of the things I most struggle with is there isn't an overnight thing. There's nothing that's overnight.
Even if you were to say, let's have a presidential candidate that mobilizes and is an insurgent candidate that's pushing this program, even if they won. And even if they were be allowed to win, to take power, all these things, you still have all of this significant work. And I think it can be debilitating.
And I think that the through line is communicators. But I don't know how much you followed the Mexican politics of late with López Obrador before and now Claudia Scheinbaum. López Obrador, AMLO, started this thing called Las Mañaneras, where every morning he would do a dispatch on YouTube.
So I guess to me, when you're like, yo, there's these huge big problems, but then there's the little itty bitty things, I think that we need to recognize when we have gifted communicators and we need to find those and find ways to communicate, because once we're able to think about it, even like narration is so important in leadership.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Marisa
And that is where we're really, that's another we haven't talked about it, but the question of media, the media ecosystem. But I think there is a part here where we have to find new ways. Look at Mamdani.
Some of the success is what he's doing, but he is developing, and I'm sure people have critiques, whatever, but I'm just using it as an example, that he is a generational communicator. And so it's his platform, it's his posture, it's how he's moving as an elected official, but his ability to communicate. And when you start delivering, and people know what's up, and then you're like, hey, I wanted to do this, but so and so, that's when you can start to.
And so just from a very meta perspective, I do think that the thing that kind of what helps you bridge, what helps you explain why something's moving like this versus when it moves like that, is narration and it is a form of leadership and in the form of how we communicate. And I think you see that also in the failure of Democratic Party, a lot of, you know, there's some people that are really good, and then a lot of people are like, and Biden, like when you look back and look at some of the things Biden did, he did do some stuff. They do significant stuff.
And people that are like, do you see people like, he did this, this, this, this. I ain't heard of none of it.
Ejeris
No, it's true. I really agree on the communicators piece. And when I, you know, I'm here in New York City, and when I, you know, I'm here in New York City, and when I'm also watching what Mom Donnie is doing, it's both like delivering, it's the communication, but it's also the power building of anointing others, you know?
So people are starting to kind of build this wave of like the influence of the Democratic Socialists for America. But one of the things I'm wondering then, you're in an organization now that both recruits people, supports people and has a variety of programs. So in these times which we've both set our fraught and can feel depressing or feel like people don't have power, what is your message to people around joining Mijente or doing movement building work or getting involved in social justice movements?
Because it sounds like for both of us, we're hearing a lot of the reasons why people may not feel that that work can be meaningful or may not make change. So what are the messages that you think people need to hear right now?
Marisa
For one, I would say, for those of us who have organizations, I think we need to challenge ourselves to think of not only how people enter organizations, but how do we relate to people in the ways they're already organized. I think for people that are unaffiliated, find a way to congregate, to affiliate, to associate. Hell, if you're feeling frisky, co-conspire.
But beyond that, which I'm sure people always say, a couple of things I would say in terms of what's important for people to think about right now, in addition to all the things that are always said. I think be really strategic about media consumption. Be clear if people are giving news or giving their opinion.
Recognize that journalism is a craft and follow people who respect that craft. If you build houses for a living, or you write, or you come up with cute content, there's a craft to it. You know that in your work, there's a way that people skip steps.
When people skip steps. And they don't play by the rules that are appropriate to play by. So be mindful that in the media, in the YouTube or whatever you're watching, that that also exists.
And then when you find stuff that's reputable, that's good, that's entertaining and informative, hopefully, tell people about it. I think media consumption and where we get our information for it, like people are already, we are all kind of like a little skeptical about authenticity and truth in terms of the information we receive. And I know that that's something that people are, are very skeptical of.
And in the skepticism, they're finding new alternatives. And those alternatives just, just read the fight print. Second, I think something that's really important right now is support the comments, support the things that are paid for by us and that come from, you know, your tax dollars.
Like use the library, use, these are really, I'm kind of, I was like, I want to come up with different things. When you think about infrastructure that exists, the post office, the library, your local park, things that we have built, I think it's important to really support those and use those because those are things that are going to be under attack. And we have no idea, we have no idea what it will be like when those things are gone.
And so I think where you put your time, where you give support to, where you engage, so that might not be that everybody's joining a mass political organization. But there's a lot, there's a lot of things to sort of participate in, to plug into on the local level. And third, I would say that, and I think this is a little bit more towards like a movement, political sort of aspect.
We need to go past the back to normal. And we need more people who find a middle ground. And when I say middle ground, I am not talking about the center.
I'm not talking about the political middle ground. I think, I'll give just a quick example. Like one thing that like when COVID was happening, and there was all this thing about the schools opening, closing, closing, opening, closing.
And there was this thing of like celebrating the schools closing, you know. And I remember thinking like, that may make sense for the teachers unions or the teachers who are concerned about their health. But for a single parent who has to go to work, yep, that's really hard.
Or children who don't have food to eat, or children who are facing situations where actually going to school is a reprieve.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Marisa
And so we need people that like, we could spend fighting till the cows come home about open the schools, close the schools, wear the mask, don't wear the mask. What if we would have pushed for outside? And so I don't know that we are in a place where we can just push MAGA to the side.
Because I don't think that MAGA, or like even our side is clean ideologically. I think people find all kinds of which ways. And so as painstaking as it is, and maybe annoying as it could be, I think there is like, how do we find middle ground and don't find ourselves in this position where MAGA, using it as a short, is pushing for radical change.
And we're in a position where we're trying to save the status quo. That could account for DEI, the Department of Education, the stuff related to vaccines and COVID and all that stuff. And so we get in this posture of like, no, we're gonna defend and we're missing something there.
There is some things that people are saying that's speaking to an unmet need. And so it's not everybody's work to have to figure out, hey, where can we find something here? Not everybody wants to do that, but I think it's actually important to figure out what ways that we can actually both sort of reduce the harm of MAGA, but also actually find ways to advance and not just sway the status quo.
Cause I would say like, I am damn not okay with the status quo.
Ejeris
Absolutely.
Marisa
And so I think a lot of people feel like going back to normal, there is no normal for some communities there never was. And so those I think are opportunities for folks in addition to the congregate, associate, organize, donate, all those things. But those would be some things I think I would say are also things to think about.
Ejeris
Marisa, this was rich. It was rich. We went in so many different directions and it was so layered.
And I'm just grateful that you took time with us on The Fascism Barometer. I'm just grateful that you joined us today. Thank you so much.
Marisa
Yeah.
Thank you. It's good to see you and talk to you.
Ejeris
Good to see you.
We've reached the end of today's episode. And while the pressure continues, I also feel hopeful to keep growing the movement against fascism. And I hope you do too.
In this episode, we had a rich conversation on what happens when whole communities feel taken for granted by politicians and parties, and what this has meant specifically for Latino communities. We've also talked about how the story of rising fascism is also about what people turn to after feeling excluded, harmed, or experiencing a growing distrust of the US's political systems and institutions. We'll continue digging into this theme on understanding how fascism is rising in the United States, and why people are finding connection to politics that feel harmful and cruel and can seem to be the opposite of their values.
We discussed some terms that may be new to you, including neoliberalism and material interest. Neoliberalism is an economic and political approach that highlights free markets, reducing government support and services, and encourages more corporate involvement in politics. And in some cases, corporations and companies take over the role of government or certain government functions.
Neoliberalism can reduce the power that unions have. It can reduce people's access to benefits and services. And some people even say it can create a level of economic hardship that can make fascist movements and fascist politics more appealing.
Now, material interest is often thought of as the practical and tangible way politics affect a person's life. Do these policies make them more or less safe? Do these policies make a person more or less financially secure?
Now, this is a learning space. So if there's anything else, we've dropped some resources in the Resource Hub at fascismbarometer.org to support you. We appreciate you joining us and we're working hard monitoring the Fascism Barometer.
Together, we can keep fascism at bay. So please watch the skies, subscribe to this feed, and we have so many more episodes coming up. And when you share this show with a friend, you've got it.
You help fight fascism. Our producer is Phil Surkis. Our theme is by McLeet Hadiro.
This podcast is a project of Ejeri Labs. I'm your movement meteorologist, Ejeris Dixon. See you next time on The Fascism Barometer.