Host Ejeris Dixon welcomes political strategist Alicia Garza to talk about what we need to change about movement building to push back against fascism.
Author, organizer, and political strategist Alicia Garza joins the Fascism Barometer to discuss the impact of rising fascism on our lives and political strategy. Alicia and Ejeris discuss what we need to change about movement building and ourselves to push back against fascist advances.
You can find the tools you need to fight fascism at our Resource Hub.
Connect with Ejeris Dixon
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Podcast production by Phil Surkis
Intro Music by Meklit Hadero
The Fascism Barometer Podcast is an Ejerie Labs Project. Thank you for joining the movement.
Ejeris Dixon: Hi friends. Welcome to the Fascism Barometer. I'm Ejeris Dixon, your movement meteorologist. And the Barometer is an educational project where we learn together what fascism is, how to stay safe, and how to create democracy and liberation for us all. As a Black queer feminist, I exist at the intersections of communities that fascists see as the enemy.
And for years, I [00:01:00] have desired a way for us to understand and measure the threat of fascism and how it impacts us. So in each episode, we work to learn what fascism is and what we can do about it from the perspectives of each of our guests. And as barometers measure pressure, we unpack the pressure that fascism puts on all of us.
So I'm looking at the barometer today, and it's reading is medium. And while there are many developments towards fascism, we're also beginning to get used to them. And the process of normalization that we've discussed continues. Also, many of us are in the process of beginning to think about and look towards the upcoming year.
And as I think about 2025, the goal is preparation, preparation for what's coming personally, emotionally, and also the preparation that our communities need to survive and defeat fascism. But no matter what happens, I know that we can navigate the storm together. And we'll come out the other side, [00:02:00] but we're going to need all of us.
And as we've said previously, fascism is best fought with massive amounts of people power, and that's what we're building here. And by listening, you're part of the movement. So here we are at our season finale, and it's the perfect moment to. to discuss with our incredible guest, Alicia Garza, what needs to change about ourselves, our communities, and our organizing for these times.
But before we get to today's conversation, here are the latest updates in fascism and what to look out for.
Welcome to the Fascism Roundup. In this segment, we talk about current trends in fascism in the United States. So Steve Bannon recently gave a speech at the New York Young Republicans Club. Suggesting that there could be a way around the constitutional term limit so that Trump could run for a [00:03:00] third term in 2028.
There are also quotes of Trump saying he'd be interested in another term. After this speech, multiple constitutional lawyers have suggested that the only way Trump could run for a third term is if the Constitution is amended. And that this amendment is unlikely to pass. However, fascists do what they want, and we need to keep an eye on whether or not this conversation continues because amending or ignoring laws to extend power is a strategy that fascists have used throughout history to end democratic practices.
In additional news on fascism, Trump said in a press conference this week, the first term everybody was fighting me. In this term, everybody wants to be my friend, and this quote highlights the progression of fascism. Authoritarianism and fascism scholar Timothy Snyder wrote a book called On Tyranny, where he names that most of the power of [00:04:00] authoritarians and fascists is freely given, and it's important to not obey in advance.
Well, it seems we're doing the opposite. ABC recently settled a defamation lawsuit with Trump for 15 million and a public apology. And this was a lawsuit that legal scholars named that they could likely win. Now ABC has not named why they decided to settle, but scholars and lawyers are speculating that ABC and its parent company, Disney, was seeking to avoid future lawsuits and ensure a good relationship with the incoming president.
But that's not all, Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg, who once banned Trump from Facebook, recently donated a million to Trump's inaugural fund. Something that Meta did not do for the Biden administration or the previous Trump administration. Additionally, Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos and OpenAI CEO Sam Altman Have also each promise to donate [00:05:00] 1 million into Trump's inauguration fund, showing us that the path to fascism is being paved by billionaires.
And that's not it. Christopher Wray, the current director of the FBI, has decided to step down. Now, he was appointed by Trump in his previous administration and has multiple years left in his term. But, as opposed to making Trump fire him to appoint Kash Patel, it seems that Christopher Wray wanted to make things easier.
Also, after Trump's repeated threats against Liz Cheney, House Republicans have issued a report recommending a criminal investigation of her, based upon her role in the Jan 6th committee. Not obeying in advance requires strategy, it requires courage, and it requires the ability to organize the opposition so that people and organizations have the support if they're targeted.
There's work for all of us to do to ensure that we organize a movement so that people don't continue to facilitate the progress [00:06:00] of fascism. Finally,
the language of terrorism continues to be used to justify the arrest and repression of social justice movements and leaders. Now we already saw this. What people are calling the nonprofit killer bill, house resolution 94 95, which was passed by the house in November and made it easier to designate nonprofits as terrorism supporters, remove their nonprofit status and radically reduce the ability to challenge these determinations.
So the latest threat comes from a report by the Capital Research Center, a right wing think tank that has connections to the Heritage Foundation, who authored Project 2025. In the report, Marching Towards Violence, the domestic anti Israeli protest movement, they list over 150 groups. Many of whom are pro ceasefire, anti genocide, and pro Palestinian.
But they say due to these positions, they are pro terrorism. [00:07:00] Now, this is an incredibly broad list of groups. And we'll link to the report in the resources section of our website. They list groups like the Movement for Black Lives. Yep, the entire movement. And name them as domestic terrorists. They list the National Lawyers Guild.
And say it's a supporter of extremists. They list the Democratic Socialists of America, and they call them a group that promotes political warfare. And yes, the same DSA that Alexandria Ocasio Cortez hails from. This report details a series of steps that the Capital Research Center believes should be taken against these groups, including the revocation of their non profit statuses to arresting and deporting their leaders.
From my eye of the citations, the research is limited and skewed. However, as ridiculous as this report may be, it can be used in government hearings and legal proceedings to [00:08:00] support the repression of activists. Fascists often work to discredit and create a rationale to arrest and eliminate their opposition.
And the implications of this report and similar reports are critical. The progression of fascism is occurring all and we need to keep up our efforts to stop it.
So I think the best way to describe Alicia is as a force. The intersection of strategy, getting shit done while being fabulous and lifting us all up in the process. Alicia is the co founder of Black Lives Matter, the founder of Black Futures Lab, the instigator and initiator of so many formations and movements.
And I'm blessed to share a few things with Alicia. We're both from the Bay. We both came up in economic justice organizing, and when we learned these things about each other, I feel like we've shared a bit of a kinship since then. Alicia's [00:09:00] leadership style allows us all to shine a little brighter, and to do more in her presence.
And when I was imagining I wanted to do a pod, I called her, overwhelmed, not sure if I could make it happen. She supported me in connecting with our amazing producer, Phil, and even more than that, she told me that I not only could do it, but that I should do this pod and that we needed it. I'm so excited to have you on the Fascism Barometer, Alicia.
Welcome.
Alicia Garza: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be here with you. Thank you. And, um, hell yeah, we needed this podcast. I'm so excited that you're doing it. And thank you for all your kind words. I'm really touched. happy that we are in relationship and we got a lot to do together. Yes, we all got a lot
Ejeris Dixon: to do together.
So I like to start with kind of like, how do you define fascism? And why does it matter to you and your people? [00:10:00] Well,
Alicia Garza: I'm going to give the like, the homie definition. Yes. Because you know, there's like lots of different ways that we talk about what's happening right now. And so I just want to like break it down the way I know it.
So the way I would talk about fascism is that it is a way of governing and a form of government. So. It's a way of making decisions together. It's a way of making rules that impact your life and my life. Those rules are often made without you, just like they are now, but that's not supposed to be how it goes in our current form of government and governing.
You're supposed to have a say, and you do. But then there's like corporate money and all this stuff that keeps you from being able to have a say. Under fascism, you really don't. It's like, it's like one [00:11:00] person and a couple of their homies who are like, usually with a lot of money and a lot of power, they're making all the decisions.
They're making decisions for you. They're making decisions for me, but they're also like making decisions for their homies. Right, who don't have as much money or power as they do because, of course, now they run the machine that gets to make the rules and change the rules. The other thing, though, that I think is really important about understanding fascism because Again, for a lot of people who might hear that definition, you would be like, well, that's kind of like what's happening now.
And I wouldn't like argue with you per se, because we could be like, well, there's shades of gray. Like our form of government and governing right now is. deeply flawed, very imperfect, and you're going to feel the shit out of the difference between what we've been dealing with and what we're about to be dealing with.
So I just want to like say that [00:12:00] thing. But the thing that I feel like is really important to understand about fascism and the difference between what we've been dealing with and what we're about to be dealing with and what we've like been feeling over time is that more and more. There's ways of making rules and changing rules that are based on a common enemy.
And whoever gets identified as that enemy don't get to play in the yard. So yeah, you've seen this, it's right now, it's trans folks, it's immigrants, right? But in particular, they're really kind of honing in on Arab and Muslim folks. What I would say is they're really honing in on folks who, uh, To them represent an enemy that they can organize other people around to be scared of and to agree that they should be left out and left behind and punished for who they are [00:13:00] and villainized and demonized, right?
So. This is now a form of government and governing, so making rules, changing rules, and then all of the containers that hold those decisions and that decision making process. They're all now organized around. keeping certain people out, denying certain people their humanity, and punishing them for their very existence, right?
And using that as a guidepost for how rules are being made, how rules are being changed, who gets to participate,
Ejeris Dixon: and who doesn't. Yes. And one of the things I really wanted when I started this pod was talking about fascism, but from the perspective of all of us who are seen as the enemy, right? All of us who are in the targeted communities, because it can become a more either intellectual conversation, like a debate among different types of governments.
It [00:14:00] can become like this broader piece around, um, How critical it is to create democracy, but also how critical it is for our people to be safe in that process to live and to have self determination of our lives. And I'm curious around also as one of coming from the communities that are seen as the enemies.
Why do you think it's important for our folks to have an understanding around fascism?
Alicia Garza: I think it's important for our folks to have an understanding around fascism for a few reasons. One, if you don't know what you're fighting, you don't know how to fight.
Yes.
Alicia Garza: Right? And so I've been having a lot of conversations over the last few months, really, where, and I say this with a lot of compassion, right?
Cause I have both been here before and I know. What it is to be scared and to like, not know the ground that you're on. We all are figuring it out and I have been having [00:15:00] conversations with people for at least the last year that have made me deeply curious about what time we think it is. So, Oh, Oh, it is important to understand the enemy that we're up against.
You know, Mo says it very clearly, like, in a struggle, right? In a struggle, um, you have an opponent, and we have an opponent, but if you don't understand your opponent, you end up fighting each other, fighting the wrong battles, or fighting ourselves, which is like, It's completely counterproductive. The other reason that I think it's important for us to understand what time it is, is so that not only are we in the right conversation, but we are also shaping our visions in ways that help us in the fight itself.
Mm
hmm.
Alicia Garza: For example. I would say that there are a lot [00:16:00] of opportunities right now. All is not for shit, but it's pretty bad. I mean, it is pretty bad. But there are opportunities to fight back, to punch back, to reimagine, to reorganize, to innovate, to experiment. But we shouldn't be under any illusions that we are closer to our vision.
We're not. We're not. We're not. And so if the conversation that you're in thinks that we are 12 steps closer to abolition and reparations and the end of colonial systems,
we,
Alicia Garza: you and I are in different time, space and galaxies. Right? Yes. Which isn't to say that we shouldn't keep fighting for those things.
It's to say that our steps need to be reordered. Okay, because we actually did suffer a big loss, and I wouldn't say that [00:17:00] it's just electoral. Like, I think that the, the ways that we organize ourselves. The methods that we've been using, the strategies, right? Like those are all up for interrogation right now.
Not throwing away, you know, the baby with the bathwater, but it's just a good opportunity for us to say, are we at our best? Do we have the things that we need to be at our best? And are we using our best? And I think if we were honest with ourselves and each other, we would say no, but we wouldn't stop there.
Then we would start to be like, okay, what do we need to do differently? So that's why I feel sorry to ramble in that, but that's why I feel like it's important for us to understand what time it is so we can be sharper, more effective fighters. And so that we can start putting some things in place now that can bloom for us later and keep us in the fight because the fight is lifelong.
Ejeris Dixon: The fight is [00:18:00] lifelong. I agree. And, um, one of the things that I've been, I've been really obsessed with the, what, what time it is. And that's why I thought of a barometer because I'm, you know, it's 2016, I'm in my house and I'm like, how much time do we have? Like, if we understand this as fascism, then we understand that things get, Very bad.
They get very violent. There's repression of activists. They try to eliminate target communities. Like what, what are the conditions that we're dealing with and how does that affect our lives and the struggles that we're up against? And so I came up with this idea of like, well, I wish there was a checklist.
I wish there was like a checklist where you could just be like, check, not check. Is it happening? And so I started to distill this idea of indicators of rising fascism because, um, in connection what we were saying around fascism as a form of governance, I also see fascism as a movement, right? And it's a movement that as it gains power, then takes over government, right?
And then starts [00:19:00] to contend for power. And then beyond taking over a government, one of my friends, Shane Burley is like. Their goal isn't just government, it's our lives, right? It's day to day life. And so I was like, okay, how do we trace this, this power as it grows? And so in terms of indicators, I'm going to talk to you about them and I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And so the first indicator, as I see it is fascists use nationalist messaging, messaging about the country, the superiority of the nation to inspire and mobilize their base. particularly if it kind of hearkens to this idea of there was like a glorified past, you know, so that feels like a check. Um, pretty much, pretty much right.
And I should say I worked on these first in early 2023. So what time it was then and what time it is now are different. That's right. So then fascists work to grow and consolidate right wing movements under their political frame. Check. Check. Yeah. [00:20:00] Fascists create. or take over existing political parties to increase their electoral power and to use these parties as tools for state or governmental capture, eventually moving to eliminate opposition parties.
Yeah. Check. Like we're, it's not eliminated, but neutralize, reduce, drastically reduce the power of.
Alicia Garza: Yeah. And frankly, I'm so glad you said this cause you know, I'm like an avid CNN watcher, which is not, this is not a commercial for CNN. It's just the things I need to do to like deal with my anxiety. Yeah. So this morning for the last couple of days, CNN has been talking about.
The confirmation hearings that are coming up for Trump's cabinet that he is proposing. And, you know, it changes day to day. Each day they say, Oh, this person's got a shot, or this person doesn't have a shot. Right now they're talking about the dude that they want to [00:21:00] be the head of the Department of Defense.
And apparently like he has an addiction problem and Doesn't love women, you know, yep, yep, you know, kind of like in close company and you know, they're targeting all of these Republican senators for whom they like don't have skin in the game because they don't have to run for reelection. And so they're like, they're like, okay, these people may actually form some kind of opposition to my confirmation.
So let me just go talk to them. But this morning, the news was different. Okay. So that I was like, yeah, that makes sense. You're trying to consolidate inside this party. And there still is, there's not an opposition movement inside the Republican party, but there are some people who are like, uh, this, this movement is a shade too far for me.
Yeah. But the thing that caught my eye this morning was that they were starting to reach out to Democrats. [00:22:00] And of course you have to do that, right. To get confirmation, although Democrats. You know, Democrats lost power in terms of the house, the Senate and the judiciary, but we don't want to get into all that.
The point is my first thought was, Oh, this isn't just math that you're doing. This is an organizing process. They started by going to people, Democratic senators who they knew had some. alliance with them in terms of their ideology and in terms of their policies that they're proposing. And the interesting thing to me was I started to think about, well, What would be their areas of alignment?
Right. And it actually is this conversation about the economy. So I want us to come back to that at some point, because one of the things I [00:23:00] think is important for people to understand about fascist movements and fascist governing and governance is that there are some things that they will talk about that you will actually be like, That's not a bad idea.
And that is the tricky part about how this works, how the barometer goes from low to high, right? Yes. And how they garner consent or just not even consent confusion.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah. There's been debates over history and debates happening now about the process of like, collaborate, you know, confront, compromise, compromise, compromise, compromise, compromise, compromise.
Or sometimes, you know, I found like a, I found a PowerPoint I did and I, I called it like, um, a movement of ostriches, like sometimes like, or putting your head in the sand, right? Denial. Denial. It's not happening. Me and my crew, we're just going to [00:24:00] like, do, we're going to do this or that. And I'm like, yeah, only if, you know, policy doesn't change.
Affect your life at all. Also having those conversations these
Alicia Garza: days where I'm like, Oh, you're just going to sit back. Really? Let me know how that goes. Yeah. Let me know how that goes. That's not how this works actually, but I want you to say it so you feel better. But I also want you to know
Ejeris Dixon: that I know.
That that's not even possible. That's not, it's not, it's not true. It's not true. Um, so the next couple of indicators kind of are in the place where we're still, um, we're not, it's not like a check, but it's in progress. So fascists start to move their talking points into policy. Right? Working to concretize hatred, fear, violence against marginalized communities.
And they use this also to, like, enliven their base because they are, like, it partially, it starts as a popular movement. They need this base to move forward. And that's, that's, like, in progress. We see that around, like, Trans health care. We see [00:25:00] that around reproductive health care. We're seeing that around, um, critical race theory and, uh, you know, what D.
E. I. Diversity,
Alicia Garza: equity and inclusion conclusion.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah, they work to control the narrative and they also work to control academic discourse in service of the nation's needs. Right. And They work to criminalize or eliminate opposing perspectives, you know, and we'll, we'll see that and like, yeah, check and, and what they're doing around book bans and, um, and also like, there's a huge piece that I've been learning more about around how the election in this moment, you know, like the Dems outweighed the Republicans in terms of money.
Right. So like, in terms of how we're thinking about, How people kind of create the organizing they need to win. There's some confusion there, but what people are really talking about is that, um, MAGA, the MAGA Republicans really dominated in terms of narrative. It was like a [00:26:00] narrative victory that led to an electoral victory.
And so the next stages, they remove, disempower, or discredit Democratic processes. Including reducing voting rights and electoral power for marginalized communities. And that I would think of as like, in progress, right? But definitely discrediting. There's a whole bunch of people that are like, do elections even matter?
Oh my God.
Alicia Garza: And a whole bunch. Okay. So I'm petty. I am petty. And so, you know, yeah, I am going to fucking say this. Because. I'm petty girl. Go ahead. So yes, elections matter. And for anybody who is saying that they don't, who is serious, I want to challenge that, right? We can't simultaneously say that these things don't matter and then freak out about our nonprofit status.
Yeah. [00:27:00] This is what happens when you allow for people to make rules. and represent you without your participation.
Ejeris Dixon: Yes.
Alicia Garza: And when you discredit the legitimacy of a thing, this is where we get to. And so I'm not saying this to be a jerk. I'm saying this to say, we have to stop. being inflammatory for the sake of performance.
If you actually are saying this process is deeply flawed and it's not going to change all the things that I care about in my life or on my political list of to dos, that is accurate.
Yeah.
Alicia Garza: But if you are saying that elections do not matter to people's everyday lives, Or yours, and the way that you do your work, the way you carry out your work, that is not only inaccurate, but it's, [00:28:00] it's
Ejeris Dixon: irresponsible.
Yeah, I think of it as power matters, right? And then there are various places where you can contest for power, whether it's electoral power, it's people and organizing power, it's economic power, narrative power. And so I think it's fine to say, this area is not my area. Interest or knowledge like there's a way of saying that without saying this area doesn't matter because I haven't met people right.
There were so many policy failures that happened within the COVID 19 pandemic that mattered where I don't know a single person, particularly in the communities we're from that doesn't know somebody who passed away. That's right. That is absolutely connected. To policy, 100 percent or someone who needs health insurance.
Now, many times people are saying I'm so locked out of systems that it doesn't matter to me. That's a condition. That's [00:29:00] right. That is because of how messed up things are. It doesn't mean that policy doesn't affect you. It means policy affects you so much that you have so little access. Right. And so there's, there's this piece around mapping The place we're at and how we make meaning from where we're at.
That's right. Right.
Alicia Garza: And I love that you said that about how we make meaning. I love that you talked about the things that we agree to together do matter. Yeah. That's how I think about policy, right? It's like, ideally the policy that we want, policy is just rules. It's like things that we agree to, that we're going to follow, right?
Yeah. And so, one of the things that I know about fascist movements and fascist forms of governance and governing is that one of the things it relies on is deep dissatisfaction, nihilism, right? Yeah. And, not joining. [00:30:00] And so one of the things that I feel gets lost sometimes in the shorthand that we do in movements.
I'm like a big believer in like words mean things, right? And I'm a big believer in like, let's get specific, right? Not to the point where we're being nitpicky, but to the point of being clear about what we believe, what we're for and what we do and what we don't do. We can't build movements. if we are nihilistic, if we are not joiners, right?
And if the totality of our strategy is non participation. Yeah. That can't, that doesn't change a thing, right? Yeah. There are times when non cooperation Being ungovernable is actually strategic, right? But it also has to be directed, and it does need to sit inside of a strategy. Like, it can't [00:31:00] be your entire strategy, and it also has to be directed.
with a power analysis informed by a power analysis of like, does my non cooperation shift the needle of power? Yeah. And, uh, I think that's something that we lose sometimes in our shorthand about whether or not participation And engagement
Ejeris Dixon: matters. I mean, personal non cooperation is, is meaningless almost, right?
I'm vetoing the electoral system. I'm not thinking about politics. That just means that someone else is making choices for you. Organized non cooperation, boycotts, strikes, power. Totally. But this, some inside of that is the other people you are doing the thing with, right? And it happens when people feel powerless.
This is a function of feeling powerless, [00:32:00] but engaging in more activities to make you more powerless. It's not the type of thing where all of a sudden you come out the other side and you got power, right? You just manage to find that you can have even less power than you did before. That's right. And that's the choice point we're at right now.
Right? Like, that's what people are, are facing. And so, the, the last indicator I have, which is the one that really animated me into talking about fascism, right? And fascists consolidate their military power. They consolidate the power of policing. They normalize. paramilitary organizations like the militias, um, other kind of right wing violent organizations, and they result in increased incidence of violence against leftists, against opponents, and against marginalized communities, right?
And that's the scary thing that we contend with that people may or may not want to recognize what's happening. Yeah. Here [00:33:00] and coming. Here and coming. And so based on kind of like the progress of fascism, I'm really curious about what do you think our, our marching orders are right now? Like what's critical to be focusing on to contend with these times?
Alicia Garza: So one of the things. I just want to say about that last indicator here and coming, I wonder if you would also add that some of that extrajudicial violence is also directed at existing government structures. Yes. Because, right? There's a strand in there where they're like, Yeah, we want to get rid of everything that gets in the way of consolidating our power, which can be government itself.
And you'll notice if you're paying any attention to the news, all of these appointees are talking about destroying what they call the deep [00:34:00] state, which is basically just government. So The one I want to call our attention to is the, the choice for the head of the FBI. Oh yeah. So today, on today, the current head of the FBI announced his resignation in anticipation of not wanting to be fired.
Right. But also, I think he thinks that he's making a statement about what it means to uphold the dignity and values of that institution. But the person that the president elect wants to replace him with is somebody who believes that that the FBI has too much principle. And that actually what we need to be doing is going back to like, The Hoover days, like J.
Edgar Hoover, the person who was basically the hired gun for several [00:35:00] administrations who would go after people who were suspected of being queer, who would go after people who were considered to be communists or just ideologically different than who they were.
Mm hmm.
Alicia Garza: The people who would go after anybody identified as a political enemy.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah, J Edgar Hoover, who wanted to prevent a black Messiah and went after Martin Luther King and Malcolm X implicated in Fred Hampton's murder, like who undermined, who sought as a goal of the FBI was to undermine the movement building of black people.
Alicia Garza: Hello. So what do you think this dude's going to do?
Ejeris Dixon: To you. Exactly. He has a 60 person enemies list published in a book you can read right now. Yo,
Alicia Garza: and he's probably adding to it as we speak. So here's what I think we need to be doing right now. Number one, I think we need to get into the right story about what time it is. And I [00:36:00] have been saying this lovingly to my people for a minute.
I remember a conversation that I had last February and a dear friend of mine was to do in November and was saying like, I just don't think I can bring myself. To participate for this person, Joe Biden, because of his policies in Gaza. And I said, I understand where you're coming from. I do. I am deeply dissatisfied with his and his administration's approach as it relates to a bunch of things, actually.
But when I want to tell you what's at stake here, In your decision, I want you to know that what's coming is a conversation about how do we continue to organize above ground. That's what we're dealing with right now. That's what time it is. All things considered, what I think [00:37:00] will unfold is an attack on our sector.
An attack on people who are trying to change systems and structures that impact our lives negatively will be identified as political enemies. And so all the things that we do right now, pretty freely in these structures that are, you know, run by a tax code. All of those things are determined by people in government, and when fascists have captured all three branches of government, when fascists have captured state power, that means that your way of being that you're used to is going to change.
It means that people who you love and care about will be attacked. And so the first thing we need to do is be in the right story about what time it is. This is not a two year endeavor. It's not just a question of like, [00:38:00] okay, well, if we change the balance of power in the house. Then we'll get out of that.
No, this is not a question of, we just got to stick it through for four years because he can't run for president again. I want to be really clear with you. What time it is, is that they've captured state power and they've amassed enough power where they could actually amend the constitution. Yeah, yeah, they could actually amend the constitution.
And so. When you capture state power, you also capture the ability not just to make the rules, but to change the rules. Yep. So we have to be in the right story about what time it is. We are more like in a Poland scenario than we are a 2016 scenario. Where we were all just like turned up and holding our noses and organizing for the next time that we could get a lick back.
Yeah.
Alicia Garza: So I want us to all understand that so that we can adjust our strategies to deal with what is [00:39:00] not just what we want. I think we need to spend some time together having some honest conversation with each other. about where we're vulnerable. And I don't mean vulnerable based on identity. I mean, vulnerable based on like, where are we not doing our best work?
Right? Can we be honest with each other about what we know and what we don't know? Not for the purposes of shaming, for the purposes of reorganizing ourselves so we can share information and get our game up. Right? So if you're somebody who's been talking about, I'm a strategist, but you've never run a campaign, let us help you learn how to develop strategy because we actually need you to be able to do that.
We need to be able to call on all of the strategists in our movement. To help us really dig in on strategy. So if you're somebody who's been saying a thing, but you haven't really been doing a thing, that's okay, but we're going to have to pivot, right? [00:40:00] So that we can consolidate, like, where are the resources where we can really dive in with people about how to win stuff?
The other thing I think we need, so that's the honesty part, right? Like it's moments of crisis like this, where it all comes out in the wash, honey. It all comes out in the wash. And so. It's okay. This is not like a time for us to shame and blame, but it is a time for us to get honest about what we're actually working with so that what we build is actually on a strong foundation.
Even if it's on a small one. Better to be small than shaky, honey. Better to be small than shaky. So let's get real honest with each other about what we do, what we don't do, what we do well, what we have been saying we do well, but we don't really do like, let's just shake it all out. Because we're going to need each other.
We're really going to need each other. Um, second thing I think is really valuable and vital right now is to spend some [00:41:00] time in realignment. The world is realigning right now because not only is our form of government and governing changing, but it's joining a global movement.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah.
Alicia Garza: Of that change. And what it means for us is that our position in the world is also changing, which is going to change like our everyday lives.
And I don't have time to get into all the ways that that looks, but it. It doesn't just look like foreign policy. It actually looks like domestic policy and having to negotiate in different ways than we've had to before. We've been decision makers on the global stage before that's changing and that's going to mean things for our everyday lives.
So what's our realignment as a movement? Um, what I would say is it feels really important to me. That we re engage and re activate the craft of organizing, which is [00:42:00] like a word that we toss around.
Ejeris Dixon: Yes.
Alicia Garza: But organizing to me is really finding people who are looking for you. Yeah. Okay? And it's bringing people together who want the same thing, but they might not want it.
Come at it from different ways, or they might not know how to come at it. Right. But it's bringing people together to solve problems together. Not just bringing people together. I mean, we, honey, we gather, but it's bringing, oh, we gather a lot. We are fueling the hotel industry in this country. Yes. We gather a ton, but it's bringing people in.
are not gathering a ton. It's bringing people in and engaging with people who want a good life. Yeah. And don't know where to go to get that. Yeah. Okay. So re engaging the craft of organizing. And I'm [00:43:00] raising this because I think one of the things that I would hope that we could just interrogate with each other is what kind of movement do we think we need to build to be out of this as quickly as possible?
Yeah. Not four years, not eight years, I'd say in a decade. Yeah. That we actually see the barometer going in the other direction. Let's set that as a, a target for ourselves of like ideal situation, right? Yeah. I actually want to pick a fight about this. I think that we don't agree that we have to build a majoritarian movement and majoritarian doesn't mean just left.
Yeah.
Ejeris Dixon: I mean, I also think that people have the, the concept of a majoritarian movement is getting confused and our folks with what the Democrats are doing. The Dems aren't building a majoritarian movement. The Dems are trying, they, they think they are, but there's, there's something really bad happening.
Where they are [00:44:00] abandoning a whole bunch of people who want better economic prospects. They are taking so many communities for granted, going after the middle and going after the center, going after the center right. Abandoning Is not majoritarian, right? Like what I keep saying to people is that there are more of us than them.
There are more of us than them. That's right. But I was, I was watching this amazing, uh, documentary on the rise of Christian nationalism and how Christian nationalists kind of, it was a rebrand of the segregationist movement. Right. And which is, which is very, very smart and very true. Right. Um, and they were like, you need a level of coordination to win elections in this country.
Um, you don't need the majority. And why do they not need them? They will never get the majority. There are more of us. There are more of us than them, but it requires like coordination and it requires engagement. It requires [00:45:00] participation, right? It requires us ironing out some differences. I've been saying to people, because there's this ostrich thing is happening again where people are like, I'm just going to wait it out and I was like, here's what you don't get about fascism.
You don't wait fascists out. They just build more power. Yeah. And then you find yourself. in prison. You find yourself in a really terrible situation, right? Like fascists have to be defeated because fascists are seeking to defeat both democracy and all of the marginalized communities. That's right. So you can decide you don't want to be in the struggle and you can decide you don't want to be in this fight, but this fight has its eye on you.
That's right. And so then you can choose where you're going to be in it. And if you're going to help out Or not, but there's no avoidance. There's no level of underground. There's no people are like my pod. My list. Those are all structures that are designed to navigate [00:46:00] collapse that are designed to support people, but they are defensive structures.
That's right. Right. And fascists have to be defeated and we need to flank, protect and be a part of. That offense, right? That's, that's what history tells us. That's where, that's where we have to go, but
Alicia Garza: 100 percent with
Ejeris Dixon: the dial turned up on our people, right? Because it's also, it's scarier. It's scarier now.
So I'm, I'm really curious around how you're contending with fear. And danger, and if you have thoughts on how people should be contending with, with those things too.
Alicia Garza: I do have thoughts on whether or not people should be contending with it, and the answer here is you're not going to have a choice. Um, the only choice you will have is how you do it, but you will have to contend with it.
You know, [00:47:00] I'm scared. I am. I, as much as I think I know about what is going to unfold, which is scary enough, I actually don't know how it's going to unfold. And that is terrifying. And so as somebody who is a deep overthinker, who has to do a lot of things to manage my anxiety about not knowing. Right? This is a hard time for somebody like me.
And what I'm so grateful for is also having spent the last decade in practice of self knowing, right? And like really working on the ways in which I metabolize. Trauma.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah.
Alicia Garza: We have spent a decade and a half talking about self care in ways that [00:48:00] again under pressure, right? Like the cracks show, um, to be effective in this next period, we are all going to have to do profound work to meet ourselves and to meet ourselves in in ways that are going to be scary and hard.
We have to know how we be under pressure and know how to manage that for the sake of the purpose that we have collectively, right? We have to be very clear about what is my purpose in this moment. And I think we have to know very clearly, like, where are the places where I collapse?
Yeah.
Alicia Garza: The thing about this moment is it gives us an opportunity to practice who we thought we were in 2020, in 2016, in 2014, [00:49:00] right?
Like, when the OGs talk about being a revolutionary, and then when we pick it up too, and we're like, I don't know, it's like, okay, this is actually an opportunity for us to practice. One of the things that we know the state uses under fascism or any other form of governing and governance, when there is an opposition movement, is they use your vulnerabilities and your weaknesses.
Yeah. They use your vulnerabilities and your weaknesses. And if you. are not aware of your vulnerabilities and weaknesses, you will be a target and that is how they will target you. So it is deeply important for us to meet ourselves and to engage in that work of meeting ourselves, not at the exclusion of learning how to also meet other people who don't think exactly the same way that we do.
Don't go about things, don't use the same terms that we do. Like, that's an [00:50:00] imperative. But to do even that work well, like you really have to do the work to meet yourself. It is how I navigate fear. It's how I get to make choices every single day about where and how I show up and with whom. It's where I get to be curious about what my limits are and where I might want to grow those limits and where those limits are perfectly okay with me.
Right? Like, I have noticed in the last two months, I'm like, Oh yeah, there's some things where I've been here before and frankly, I'm okay with it. I'm okay with it. Like I will give an example. I'm in a thing right now with myself where I've had moments. Where I've seen my role is like really going in and like holding stubborn and obstinate folk Who are really rigid about their way, right?
[00:51:00] I've seen my role and sometimes being like, okay I'm just gonna keep working with that To see if we could just move like a little bit I made a decision a while ago that that is not actually my best contribution. I can do it, right, but it's not my best contribution. My best contribution is really digging in deep with serious people doing serious things.
Yes.
Alicia Garza: That can change for me over time though, right? And so, but I have to know what I have available to me as resource. If I know I'm crispy, I can't do that holding work with the obstinate, like, rigid parts of our movement because I just know I ain't got it and I know we gonna have funk, right? Like, I know I'm gonna pop off at the mouth, I'm gonna say some crazy shit.
I know myself, right? Like, and so, for the sake [00:52:00] of my purpose, I'm like, that's not actually furthering it. So I, I know how to. Make choices based on what I have available to me at any given moment that takes a knowing it takes a being willing to build a tool that allows you to look at your vulnerabilities without shame, without judgment, but with like clear eyes.
And to really think about where does this serve me, where does this not serve me? How do I navigate the shame and embarrassment that I might have about all the times and ways in which I showed up in a way that didn't serve me, but I thought at the time it might have, right? Like that takes work. And for us to be in relationship with each other in times of deep uncertainty and fear, you have to meet yourself.
So that you can meet others. Um, so my [00:53:00] call for us would be if you're not already in practice around meeting yourself, meet yourself. And the practice for this period is kind of like what they say sometimes in meditation, where, you know, people go and they sit and they close their eyes and they'd be like, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope.
That's the easy shit. That's the easy shit. Everybody can sit, close their eyes and tune out. That's not what we're doing over here. We actually want you to be present with what is, with your eyes wide open. And so that, I think, is the practice of what we're trying to do. We're trying to meet ourselves so that we can meet others without putting our heads in the sand, without closing our eyes, without being like we're just going to keep doing more of the same shit that we've always been doing, but also without the nihilism of we'll never get it right.
Yes. Right? Yes. Like, eyes open allows us to see opportunities and choices. Last thing I'll say, [00:54:00] and I just want to shout out my homegirl, Marisa Franco, who gave me a really good analogy about this moment. She said, if you've ever been jumped, you're going to understand what I'm about to tell us that we need to be doing.
So if you've ever been jumped, you know, you go down and you cover your face and your head.
Mm hmm.
Alicia Garza: Okay? You try to protect yourself. You're not just on self protection, you're looking for that one lick that you can get in. Right? You're looking for that one lick you can get in. And so that would be my offering to us.
We're gonna have to cover our head, cover our body. 'cause we're about to take some blows.
Yeah.
Alicia Garza: But never stop looking for that opportunity to get your lick into
Ejeris Dixon: Alicia. This conversation has been amazing. I couldn't think of a better person to close out the season with the season of learning [00:55:00] and growing together.
And to quote the homie Marisa, these times are gonna take so much from us and they're gonna take so much of us. And I, I'm so grateful that you joined us here and to give our folks a sense of what's needed of them. What's needed of our movements and what we're going to do together to get, to get our lick in.
Yeah. Thank you so much.
Alicia Garza: Oh, I appreciate you. Thank you for having me. Let's go, y'all. Yes. We got a fight to win.
Ejeris Dixon: We've reached the end of today's episode and while the pressure continues, I feel more equipped to fight fascism, and I hope that you do too. When we started the fascism barometer, we knew it was going to be an experiment and the support and feedback that we're getting from all of you [00:56:00] is so inspiring.
And therefore we've decided that we're coming back. Season two, we'll start in the spring, expect more guests, more resources, and new strategies to ensure that we're answering your questions on fascism. If you want to know more about Alicia, please go to our website fascismbarometer. org. Also, we're in the process of fundraising for season two, so if you can donate and share with a friend, also do so at our website.
We appreciate you joining us and we're working hard monitoring the Fascism Barometer for you. Together, we can keep fascism at bay. So watch the skies and subscribe to this feed, as we'll be dropping more information about season two as it becomes available. And when you share the show with a friend, you've got it.
You fight fascism. Our producer is Phil Serkis. Our theme is by Maclete Hedero. This podcast is a project of Ejeri Labs, and I'm your movement meteorologist, [00:57:00] Ejeris Dixon. See you next time on the Fascism Barometer.