Host and "Movement Meteorologist" Ejeris Dixon welcomes back author and strategist Alicia Garza
Ejeris Dixon welcomes back author and strategist Alicia Garza for a clear-eyed read of the moment. Garza breaks down how fascism weaponizes white supremacy and emergency politics to manufacture enemies, demand a strongman, and win consent, while reminding us that resistance is a long tradition in Black, immigrant, and trans communities.
Stay tuned for part two of this vital conversation, as Dixon and Garza will discuss concrete power-building moves to "keep the barometer at bay".
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Alicia Garza's book, The Purpose of Power
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Full Transcript is available at fascismbarometer.org.
Podcast production by Phil Surkis
The following is presented to you in a round sound. It was recorded with whatever was lying around.
Alicia
There's 364 million people that live in this country. So, the new thing that we build has to be able to hold that level of complexity and still garner consent, not through violence, not through coercion, but because it actually works for most people.
Ejeris
Hi friends, welcome to The Fascism Barometer. I'm Ejeris Dixon, you're a movement meteorologist and The Barometer is an educational project where we learn together what fascism is, how to stay safe, and how to create democracy and liberation for us all. As a black queer feminist, I exist at the intersections of communities that fascists see as the enemy, and I have deeply desired a way for us to understand and measure the threat of fascism and how it impacts all of us for quite a while.
In each episode, we work to learn what fascism is and what we can do about it from the perspectives of each of our guests. And as barometers measure pressure, we unpack the pressure that fascism puts on all of us. So first, thank you for your patience with us as we spent some time doing some internal work and retooling the barometer, but we're really excited to be back with you today.
And as I'm looking at the Fascism Barometer, its reading has been extremely high for the past few weeks. The regime is seeking to target immigrants and funders and communities of color and multiple cities and essentially everyone who is against rising fascism. If you're feeling overwhelmed, it's not only reasonable, but it's exactly how they want us to feel.
So yeah, the Fascism Barometer is really high. But so many of us are deepening our involvement in movements against fascism, as we should. I know we can navigate the storm and I believe we will come out the other side, but we're going to need all of us.
As we've said before, fascism is best fought with massive amounts of people power, and that's what we're building together. Thank you for listening and joining our movements. This week's conversation on fascism features part one of a two-part interview with the incredible Alicia Garza, where we talk about rising fascism, the history of fascism and authoritarianism in the United States, and how we build power.
But before we get to that, here are the latest updates on fascism in the news.
Welcome to The Fascism Roundup. In this segment, we talk about current trends in fascism in the United States. And there's so much happening, so this is just a snapshot.
So the federal government shut down on October 1st, due to Congress not passing a spending bill. Now the disagreement mainly hinged upon Democrats wanting to undo health care spending cuts from the Affordable Care Act and Medicaid, and the Republicans not agreeing to this. So during a shutdown, several government funded programs pause and staff on those projects get a temporary unpaid leave from work, also called a furlough.
In our understanding though, Trump is trying to use the shutdown to permanently lay off government workers and to punish opponents. According to Truthout, Trump said, “We can get rid of a lot of things and they'd be Democrat things.” And according to PBS he named, “I mean, we could cut projects that they wanted and they'd be permanently cut.”
In addition to this, he's been posting racist videos of Democratic politicians and he posted a meme that called the Democrats the party of hate, evil and Satan. Calling people Satan and evil, punishing whole communities to punish your opponents, these are not the policies you see in a democracy. They're what you see in a dictatorship. We're going to continue to follow this for you and keep you updated.
Additionally, a recent report from the organization Pregnancy Justice highlights that over the past couple of years, 400 people have been charged with pregnancy related crimes in the aftermath of the Supreme Court removing the federal constitutional right to abortion. From viewing miscarriages and stillbirths with suspicion, to charging people with the failure to obtain prenatal care, 75% of the people who were charged with pregnancy crimes were low-income people.
So I'm going to remind you of a quote from a previous guest, Shane Burley, and it's that fascists seek not to just control the state, but they seek to control our lives. There's a long history of fascists seeking to control people's bodies. This is another example of it.
Also, Trump ordered National Guard troops deployed to Portland, Oregon, after calling Portland a war zone, plagued by what he called “domestic terrorists.” This week, around 200 National Guard troops reported for duty in Oregon, and began training on “special rules for the use of force,” according to an article from ABC. This continues a concerning trend of Trump concocting fictitious emergencies to abuse federal power.
As of the time of this recording, a judge has temporarily blocked Trump from deploying the National Guard in Portland. And according to PBS, the judge named the protests did not justify the use of federal forces. Also in deployments, Trump recently authorized 300 National Guard troops to deploy to Chicago against the protests of the governor.
This is in addition to an ICE operation in Chicago that has led to a drastic increase in ICE officers, created a wave of violence upon Chicago's communities, and arrested over 800 people. Just this week, Border Patrol, the FBI, and other agencies raided nearly every unit in a Chicago apartment building in the middle of the night. They repelled down from helicopters, arrested close to 40 people, separated children from their families, and detained US citizens for hours.
There's also been unprecedented violence against protesters, and even a reporter who was in her car, who ICE shot with chemical agents. Attorney General Pam Bondi recently released a memo instructing ICE to target protesters at ICE facilities. And in a meeting with 800 senior generals and military advisors, Trump recently talked about the need to target the enemy within, which is pretty chilling.
Despite this, Chicago communities are organized in protesting. The suppression of dissent and the targeting of protesters and communities, particularly immigrants, is a hallmark of fascist regimes, and we must continue to push back against it.
Finally, in the past month, the regime has worked to challenge free speech, blaming so many people for political violence. Recently, Trump issued an executive order and a presidential memo directing the Justice Department and other federal law enforcement agencies to go after what he's calling “left-wing domestic terrorists.” The executive order is called “Designating Antifa as a domestic terrorism organization,” and it seeks to do just that, except Antifa isn't an organization. Some call it a movement of people who have some loosely shared beliefs around anarchism, anti-capitalism and anti-fascism.
So this executive order directs all relevant executive departments and agencies, and I quote, “to investigate, prosecute and disrupt and dismantle any and all illegal operations, especially those involving terrorist actions conducted by Antifa.” The order also targets the funders of Antifa, but as it's not an organization, there aren't really organizational funders. Now, the presidential memo is called “Countering Domestic Terrorism and Organized Political Violence,” and it directs the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force to investigate organizations that cause political violence, according to them.
In it, the memo identifies beliefs that they define as anti-fascism, but it's a ridiculous laundry list, including people and organizations who hold anti-American beliefs, anti-Christian beliefs, anti-capitalist beliefs, and what they're calling hostility to traditional views of the American family. And there's even more. This memo expands the definition of domestic terrorism to essentially include so many people.
And truthfully, shouldn't we all be against fascism? Fascists work to scare their opponents into submission. And I won't lie, these documents attempting to connect people and organizations that are against fascism or against capitalism are chilling.
But we know what the deal is. When a movement is powerful, tyrants seek to crush it with threats of violence and imprisonment. So we have to oppose fascism, tyranny and dictatorship at every step.
So our goals haven't changed. We will keep telling the truth. We will keep educating you about fascism and authoritarianism.
And we will continue to oppose the repression of free speech and claim our right to protest rising fascism together.
I'm very excited to welcome Alicia Garza back to The Fascism Barometer. Alicia Garza believes that Black communities deserve what all communities deserve, to be powerful in every aspect of their lives. Author, political strategist, organizer and cheeseburger enthusiast, Alicia founded the Black Futures Lab in 2018 to make Black communities powerful in politics.
Alicia is also the co-creator of Black Lives Matter, and the Black Lives Matter Global Network, an international organizing project to end state violence and oppression against Black people. The Black Lives Matter Global Network now has 40 chapters in four countries. Currently, she serves as the Senior Vice President for Movement Infrastructure and Explorations at the Freedom Together Foundation.
Now, Alicia and I have shared multiple spaces together within movement work across several years, and she's been a huge behind-the-scenes supporter of the Fascism Barometer. Really, wherever Alicia goes, she builds a pathway that supports so many of us to build better, stronger, and more joyful freedom movements. Welcome back to the Barometer, my friend.
Alicia
Oh, I'm so happy to be here, and thank you for your kind words, and thanks for the opportunity.
Ejeris
Always. So we want to start with, really, why is understanding fascism important to you? I know.
Alicia
I think for me, understanding fascism is important to me, because as conditions accelerate in this country, I really want to know what I'm working with. I really want to know what I'm working with. And there's a way in which you could not understand what's happening and come to conclusions that will lead you astray.
And so I can give an example. We're having a lot of conversations and we're about to go into a lot more conversations about midterm elections. And we've been hearing for the better part of a year now, “Well, we just got to kind of do what we can to take back the House and take back the Senate.” You know, all the things that people say about electoral strategy, which you could have some healthy debates about in the context of a neoliberal democracy.
But given that conditions have changed in such a way that that is no longer the terrain that we're on, having a conversation like that about what happens in the midterm elections, as if we're in the country that we were in a year ago, would inevitably lead you to the wrong conclusion if you weren't trying to understand what is fascism and why does that matter for my life.
So I just say all that to say, I not only want to understand what is happening and why, I definitely want to understand what I can do about it, particularly as conditions get more sharp and more scary.
Ejeris
Yeah. It makes me think about, we haven't had the opportunity to cook together, but Instagram tells me you cook.
Alicia
I do, and we got to make that happen, BTdubs.
Ejeris
Yeah. I love to cook too, and I remember part of my initial fascination obsession was almost like, what's the recipe? You know, like, what are the key ingredients?
And like in any good recipe, what fucks up this meal? You know?
Alicia
Yes.
Ejeris
Because, you know, we don't have all the capacity, right? But if there are key things that we can identify, focus on, practice, conjure up, and it feels critical, and especially this piece about danger feels really critical because in this project, we've been centering the communities that have the most to lose first. And so when we're talking to our own communities, you know, black communities, queer communities, trans folks, what do you think are the parts of fascism that are most important for our folks to understand?
Alicia
Can I say something about the recipe analogy? Because I really liked it. It's also like, what do you do when you accidentally put in a tablespoon of salt instead of a teaspoon?
Because you just misread the thing, right? And there are actually things that you can do.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
But, or there's like a piece of that that's like, yeah, what kinds of things would make this recipe turn out badly? But also, I like to use the New York Times cooking app, because I like them recipes, but some of them recipes are unseasoned.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
And so, I look at the recipe and I'm like, right? And so I'm like, how would my grandmama make this recipe? Like I get, like, thank you for the turmeric, thank you for all of those things.
But like, how would my grandmama make this recipe? So, going on that analogy and going into your next question, what is important about fascism for black folks and immigrants and trans folks and everybody who occupies many of those things all at the same time to understand, is that one of the unique characteristics of fascism is the ways in which it weaponizes white supremacy, in particular, to move its agenda. And that is a quick, fast, tried and true vehicle for creating an us and them, for creating an enemy and a ruler, and also for satisfying what cannot be satisfied by that ruler's agenda.
And so let me say a couple of things about that. White supremacy provides a scapegoat for who's bad and who's good in a fascist terrain. And almost like a justification for why you need to support a strong man.
Okay. You need to support a strong man because there are people coming to get you and they want to take things from you that they don't deserve. That is literally the argument.
And then there's some other stuff in there too, right, about the inherent inferiority of those people, those groups that are designated as other by white supremacy. And white supremacy, particularly. So in other fascist contexts in this country, right, black people were lynched, maimed, beaten, raped and otherwise terrorized, right, because it was believed that black people were inherently inferior and that black people were dangerous and criminal.
Right? And so this was used as a way to show the taming of a criminal element, right? It's a way to garner and gather consent for that agenda with others who may be on the fence, right?
They may not be strong men, but they may be feeling isolated, weak or scared. Okay. So that's one piece.
The other way that it's weaponized, though, is to create a hero and to create a narrative and a kind of picture of what is good in relationship to what is bad. And black folks, immigrants, trans folks have a lot of reason to be scared right now. But I'm not going to end this story there.
There’s a lot of reason to be scared because this country actually is well practiced. It is well practiced in this version of fascism. But because this country tends to be powered by amnesia, we forget, right?
So I recently had the opportunity to spend some time with a group of black folks at the Equal Justice Initiative. And I will say that black communities have a long tradition of fighting back against the fascist elements of this nation. Long tradition, long and strong.
Some of us right now are talking about what are the ways that you can fight back against authoritarianism. And people are talking about general strikes and boycotts and all the things that I'm like, where have you seen those things before?
Ejeris
Our people.
Alicia
Right up in the hurr, right? So while there has always been this kind of various elements of this agenda that are at play at any given point in time, there has also always been resistance. And what I think people should be paying attention to right now is the ways in which enemies are being created.
So, you see acts of political violence and the immediate identification of who is the assailant. And in there, there are some key words that you should be paying attention to. The left, Democrats, liberals, and trans people, right?
And black people, okay? There is a reason that during acts of political violence, right, immediately afterwards, because of the nature of it, that groups automatically get demonized, weaponized or targeted. After the most recent act that just happened in Utah, there was an unprecedented amount of threats that were lobbied at HBCUs, even though this is like a state that is 99% white.
Ejeris
Yes.
Alicia
And there was no black people.
Ejeris
I don't know of an HBCU in Utah.
Alicia
There is not an HBCU in Utah. And so, again, here again, right, with the who was responsible, they're like, oh, there was a trans agenda that was trying to be moved, which does not hold up. And then, of course, just today, right, there was a devastating act of violence at a detention center in Texas, where folks who were in that detention center were killed.
Okay. But the immediate narrative was that it was people who were targeting law enforcement. Okay.
And so, there's a way in which this kind of political system uses white supremacy and white nationalism, and in particular, white Christian nationalism, specifically, and weaponizes it to create an enemy, to create an other, and to drive additional violence, separation, isolation, and fear that is directed at whoever has been deemed an enemy, an outsider, a criminal, or some other way that somebody could be at fault.
Ejeris
Yeah. There's an article I wrote years ago where then I broke down the fascist emergency playbook. People want to think that fascists gain power gradually. I don't know, we like to think in curves we can measure, but it's actually, there are these jumps, right, that can happen. And sometimes it's created emergencies, sometimes it's actual emergencies, right? Like these different acts of violence.
But the playbook stays the same. Use the emergency to justify violence against the other. Use the emergency to justify the need for extraordinary power.
So it's okay to take away their rights. You know, it happened in Nazi Germany, it happened under Fascist Italy, but it also happened under Viktor Orban's Hungary. Like it's over and over and over again.
And so it's one of those things to always think about, right? After various shootings, it's been like, okay, let's watch and see how the emergency plays out. And then the stressor on us is how do we not get caught up in those messages?
How do we recognize that our community standing together is always the answer?
Alicia
That's right. I mean, I also want to say in here that one of the ways that we have known how to fight back is by doing everything that we possibly can to fight for our ability to build community on our own terms. And in moments like this, historically and in the present, there's never been more of a need for community building.
I have been so heartened since the last time we talked about all the ways in which people are finding and seeking and building community when it would be so easy to isolate or to tune out or to freeze or, God forbid, appease. And I think one of the kind of odd things about these kinds of moments is that your life continues on at normal and then it's not normal at all. Yeah.
And you're experiencing that at the same time, which is it's a lot to hold and a lot to kind of thread. But I think what helps us hold it is community. And so that's one of the ways we fight back.
Another way we fight back is by keeping our critical thinking skills. So in moments like this, it's more important than ever to like better understand your sources, to be really careful about how you share information and where you share it from. And to not give in to the reality entertainment, that is kind of like a unique characteristic of this version.
Ejeris
Yes.
Alicia
You know, like I used to say back in the day that we should never treat our movements like they're reality television. Like actually, there's a way in which dealing with conflict and drama in our movements, as if we're watching Real Housewives, has real implications and real consequences. And we're seeing that now.
Ejeris
Absolutely.
Alicia
Because in doing so, you become observer as opposed to practitioner of what it means to quickly, effectively and efficiently move through conflict for the sake of cohesion.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
And so like in this landscape, it becomes so important. As I said on our last conversation, whatever stuff you got, it don't matter.
Ejeris
Yeah. And I'll say it like as a person, like I find gossip fun. I won't say that I don't.
Alicia
I love a kiki.
Ejeris
Like give me, give me the information.
Alicia
I love a kiki.
Ejeris
Who did what to who?
Alicia
You know what I mean?
Ejeris
However, in these times when they are picking people off the street.
Alicia
And raiding homes.
Ejeris
Right. And raiding homes. My desire for some, some good goss, like that's secondary to, you never know who's going to be there and who can come to your aid.
Alicia
100 percent.
Ejeris
Right. And we need to, you know, so there's so many ways where it's like, I don't agree with people on 100 percent, but I might agree with 85. And you know what? That's good enough. That's enough. To take care of each other.
Alica
That's good enough.
Ejeris
60 percent is good for some form of collaboration.
Alicia
100 percent. 100 percent.
Ejeris
I mean, shoot, I still show up at Christmas with my family. We might be at 35. So we can't pretend we don't know. We don't know how to do this.
Alicia
We can't act like we don't know how to do this, exactly.
Ejeris
Right? Right? People still go to the family reunion.
Alicia
And you still talk with that one family member that you know.
Ejeris
That you know it's going to talk about you, the second –
Alicia
They're going to say something wild, but you still talk to them.
Ejeris
You still talk to them. And it's... But I also think like, it was funny when we were talking about cooking and you were talking about seasoning. I literally have a slide somewhere that says the pro-democracy movement needs seasoning.
Alicia
Can we talk about this?
Ejeris
And it's connected to what you were saying, right? That many of us come from generations of communities that know what it's like to build community under threat, to find ways to collaborate across difference, to find ways to make a way under various forms of state terror. And when I was first encountering, because I was like snooping around, I was like, okay, what do the movements look like to build democracy?
What do the movements look like to fight authoritarianism? Where are my people in those movements? Are my people in those movements?
How connected are they? And then I was like, oh –
Alicia
We out here.
Ejeris
We're here.
Alicia
Other folk out here, but we're not connected.
Ejeris
We're not connected.
Alicia
How do we get a segregated movement? Can we talk about that?
Ejeris
Yeah. I mean, I did want this conversation to diagnose. I wanted us to diagnose because it's true.
And that's why in this project I started, you know people have wisdom on how to live and build through this. And I do think there is a piece around that the organizing gets segregated from my eye when we don't acknowledge the forms of state terror that many communities have historically lived under. So like we need to be able to say, America has been fascist for quite a long time.
America does not have to be fascist.
Alicia
Hello.
Ejeris
And that can be true, and we can organize from that place. We can also organize from the place that like, even for people who think they're benefiting from fascism, they often don't see benefits and experience violence.
Alicia
Yeah. I'm so glad you said that. This has been on my mind.
You know, like you, I've spent the better part of the last eight months trying to get people in motion. Like, okay, are we all clear about what time it is? Are we all clear about what that means?
Are we all clear that we're not going back to what was? Like, that's done.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
That's done. So like, ain't no election going to fix that. Like, that's done.
We're not going back there. That is done, done.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
That's the project of Project 2025 to dead that. And they are 80% done.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
With that, a girlfriend today told me, okay, so that means they're going to go on to Project 2028. And are we ready for that? And I was like, not on today, girl, I'm going to come back to that.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
So let's come back to that. But the last eight months have spent, as you have and many others, trying to get us on the same page about what time it is, that we're not going back, that there are things that we can do, that we don't have a lot of time to do them. And it's not because the world is ending, it's because of how quickly power is consolidating.
And so the question becomes, are you here for 60 years, or are you here for like 8 to 10 years? And the preference here would not to be here at all, but since we are, I'm choosing the 8 to 10. There's some things that we got to do.
Ejeris
Yeah, or that the 8 to 10, that 60 years requires the 8 to 10.
Alicia
Correct, correct. And I realized that every time I would be in these conversations, I would look around and I'd be like, wow, I've been in this work for a long time, and none of the people in the ecosystems that I'm a part of are in these conversations. And so at a certain point, when I think about that ecosystem, I'm like oh, well, there is actually something for us to take on here about what are we trying to build.
And I'm not dodging this question of like, is our movement segregated? Because it is.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
So we'll just name that. And the question is, what are we going to do about it?
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
So I loved how you said, this place has been fascist for a long time, and it will continue to be fascist unless we decide we don't want it to be fascist anymore. That is the project actually of democracy.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
And whatever we want to call it, because maybe the name democracy has just been so tattered, so tarnished that it can no longer be a thing that galvanizes people. I don't care what you call it. You can call it mashed potatoes if you want.
But will it be racist?
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
Don't nobody want no unseasoned mashed potatoes, and don't nobody want no racist democracy.
Ejeris
Exactly.
Alicia
So we have to figure out quickly, what is the new political system that we want to build that can form some level of connection and relationship and agreement? And I don't mean we agree on everything, but I mean agreement to do this thing. Something that can do that to the tune of hundreds of millions of people.
Not hundreds of people, not thousands of people, not even hundreds of thousands of people. There's 364 million people that live in this country. So the new thing that we build has to be able to hold that level of complexity and still garner consent, not through violence, not through coercion, but because it actually works for most people.
And the thing that works actually, truly for most people is not a racist democracy. So what's the mashed potatoes with the seasoning and the good brown gravy with the drippings in it? And they could be vegan drippings if you want, but they still got to have drippings because that's what good gravy is made of.
But you understand? Yes. What is the seasoned mashed potatoes with the good gravy?
Ejeris
I think it's why we can't go back. It's why we don't want to go back. I'm not organizing for us to go back to racist democracy.
Right? That's a real hard sell. And I think that was part of...
Alicia
Oh, yeah. That's a no-go... .what was challenging for me in some spaces that I was in.
Ejeris
And that's what has poisoned the turn. Because so many people here who are experiencing oppression, racism has been caught up in the US democratic experiment since the beginning. So they become synonymous when they aren't actually.
Where it's just that these two things can be pulled apart and people are like, can they really? This is all I've seen. So, you know, that's part of the work of an organizer, right?
Like, it's a part of the work of an artist. It's part of all of these works. Like, how do we mobilize towards something that we all believe in, that we know is possible, but maybe we haven't touched yet, you know?
And how we hold on to that under threat. I'm really interested in talking about power, because that feels like a big part of this answer.
Alicia
Do we have it yet?
Ejeris
Well, and I think that that's the difference between people who are like, there is nothing that can be done. I'm going to sit here and plan for collapse, right? Which is part of what I think some of what we're navigating, right?
Like, it's a mix of, I think, grief and a lack of political education, like kind of slammed together, right? Like not understanding that like, no, power can be built every day. Power can be built relationship by relationship and organization by organization.
But if power is this ethereal thing that doesn't feel tangible to people and doesn't feel like something we can do. So I'd love to start with like, how do you define political power so that we can start talking about where power is increasing and where it's decreasing like in a concrete way?
Alicia
I mean, I did write a whole book about this.
Ejeris
I decided to go to the source.
Alicia
I did write a whole book about this and actually this framework is credited to my sister, Ai-jen Poo, who is brilliant and helps us understand power in different ways. So we could get into the nuances. There's different kinds of political power, I think, that we would talk about in frame.
But for these purposes, political power, I'm going to situate in the context of government and governing power. And so political power is the ability to decide who represents you in a governing system. It's the ability to decide and to influence what agenda those people who represent you also represent.
And it is the ability to keep them or remove them as your representative for the purposes of accountability to the agenda that you choose. And what's key in there is choice, agenda, representation and accountability. So choice is important here because I think it points toward what kind of system we want to be in.
The system that is quickly consolidating is a system that actually wants to limit dramatically the ability to choose. The second piece here is about representation, also a critical part of a system that we would want to build. This system has a particular form and way of how people, 364 million people are represented.
I think in our new system, we might choose differently because right now, the way that it's organized was really apportioned by slavery and genocide.
Right?
So it's really about how do we make sure that the voices of people who are propertied, including owning other people, get to then negotiate how they want to split their spoils. Okay? And that carries all the way out into the present day.
So that's important.
Ejeris
And it's like how then you get people now who are like, nobody that is my representative actually represents me.
Alicia
So many people never even don't even know the name of their person who represents them.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
Which is wild.
Ejeris
Yeah. Or like neither of these parties fully embody my values.
Alicia
Totally. That part. That part.
Then there's this piece in that definition that is about the agenda. And in a party system, whether it be one party, two party or multiparty, there is a platform, which is a worldview that is determined by interests. Okay.
In a one party system, you can imagine whose interests are represented in that agenda. In a two party system, it's kind of similar to the one party system, or at least it has become that way because of the way our system is set up. And in a multiparty system, it could actually work that way too.
The architects of a new system would have to figure out, how do we make sure that, what kind of power needs to be built to ensure that the interests behind those agendas can be as varied as possible, and that the relative amount of power that you have and build, not as one individual, but as groups of people, connected, united, cohered, right, determines what interests set agendas. So, I think that's all I'll do in there, but if you want more, you can read my book. It took me three years to write, so somebody should read it.
Ejeris
Yes, yes The Purpose of Power.
Alicia
How we come together when we fall apart.
Ejeris
So then, let's take this definition of power, because it's been a year since we've talked. Where are fascist movements gaining and losing ground? What are you seeing happening with their political power?
And then I would love to talk about also progressive movements, so we kind of understand a little bit of the chess that we're playing.
Alicia
Oh, this is kind of connect Four.
Ejeris
Yeah, it's a different game.
Alicia
But we want it to get to chess. We want it to get to chess. That's what we're working on.
So this question is complicated, because what I see is where are they gaining ground? Almost everywhere. They have reorganized government at the federal level and they've moved into states and they're doing that as well.
And they're even starting to do it on local levels.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
They have changed the rules of government and how we use it, particularly in relationship to the military and police, which is a really big deal. They have consolidated our information ecosystem and they're continuing to gain ground on that and now they are locking it down. And so soon, there will not be a free press.
And at some point soon, with no fight back, there will not be free speech. So all your favorite podcasts, the talk they shit, you know what I'm saying, will be under attack. If they're saying things that this regime does not like.
Globally, also, we're doing a lot. We are establishing ourselves as the leaders of the authoritarian front, which is very dangerous. It's very, very dangerous, especially in relationship to other countries that are organized differently and have maybe not comparable, but enough military power that if folks are beefing, it could really be some funk, like some real funk, like not a street fight funk, like...
Ejeris
War.
Alicia
Yeah. Really dangerous. So this week at the UN, some of the scariest stuff I've heard.
And we need to be conscious of what this means and looks like. And in fact, one country that's been super successful in beating back authoritarianism just kind of sent the leader of the coup to jail for 30 years over fomenting this coup. And that is not a permanent position, my friends.
Ejeris
You're talking about Brazil.
Alicia
Yes, I'm talking about Brazil. Because this is a part of what it would mean to establish leadership of a global front.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
Right? Would be to do, like, weird stuff like that. So, because we've already kind of, like, aligned ourselves with other totalitarian governments and other repressive governments, that is not unprecedented for this country.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have amnesia. But the formation of who we are aligning ourselves with as a nation is different and scary. So, these are the places where they're gaining ground.
They're also gaining ground on the cultural front. And here's what I mean by that. There is a growing story that white people in this country are under attack.
And there is also a sigh of relief that is being breathed about getting to let go of the discomfort of what change in this country means, demographically. So, why does that matter? Well, it's kind of like reconstruction and the backlash to it, right?
Chattel slavery is formally abolished in this country. I can't do this as well as like a Nicole Hannah Jones, but you should totally have her on because she could break this all the way down, honey. But I would give the bootleg version, which is that chattel slavery was abolished in this country.
They didn't tell black people for a hot minute.
Ejeris
Yes.
Alicia
But then when we got told, like, actually, we're not doing that stuff no more. Then they were like, okay, so what's good? Do I get some land?
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
What's up with the housing? You feel me?
Like, what you finna do about the fact that you've been incredibly violent and you have kept me from being able to feed myself and my family on my own terms.
Okay.
It's like the one time government was like, yo, not the one time, but for black people, the government was like, okay, yo, check this out. We are going to allocate, okay, because we know we was wrong. We know we was wrong.
So, we are going to allocate some stuff, okay. So, when y'all talking about 40 acres and a mule, that's where this comes from. It's not just Spike Lee's production company.
Actually, 40 acres and a mule was what was allocated by the United States government to try to redress the harms of slavery. Okay. This also meant that there was an unprecedented number of black people in government because if you're not a slave, you feel me?
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
Then you get to participate. You got to participate. Okay.
Housing, schools, education, but also political representation and engagement and involvement. One of the highest points in history of highest numbers of black representatives in the federal government, it was during reconstruction.
Ejeris
It was this huge flip and swell of complete disenfranchisement of black people to black people having more power than we've seen at other points since then.
Alicia
Woo! And the white people went wild. So this is when the Ku Klux Klan was established.
Okay.
Ejeris
Race riots all over.
Alicia
Check this out. We want it back. We know y'all tilled the soil.
We know we stole it from somebody else and then made y'all work on it. But you know what? We're not going for this.
That was Q, but we would like your rights back. Oh, yeah. Like that.
We would like your rights back. Okay. So that's what time it is right now.
That's what time it is right now. We would like your rights back.
Ejeris
Yes.
Alicia
And so why I bring that up in relationship to your question and Ejeris is because it is the conditions for more political violence. Because we also right now, up until I think 2023 had the highest number of black and people of color, representatives in Congress, in our nation's history besides that moment of reconstruction, that eight years or whatever it was. So we are certainly in a moment of backlash that gets driven through political violence, racial terror, and brutal, brutal, brutal state violence.
So they are gaining ground on that, and they're gaining consent, more importantly. Where are they losing? Well, the fact that they have to amp all this shit up means they know it's fragile.
They know it's fragile.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
And they know that actually the majority of people in this country ain't for it. Now, one great example, Jimmy Kimmel.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
Now, I don't know why people didn't turn up when they did the same shit to Joy.
Ejeris
Yeah, that's the whole conversation.
Alicia
But you know, you know I wasn't going to not, because I mean.
Ejeris
No, no.
Alicia
And you know, they've been doing this to our sisters for a minute. Melissa, Joy, Tiffany, I mean, when black women get, yeah. But anyways, but thank goodness for this white man, because let me tell you what, people turn up.
What do you mean he can't say what you want to say?
Ejeris
Yeah. OK.
Alicia
And then people say, OK, well, we're going to pull the plug. We're going to pull the plug. We're not watching you.
We're not watching your baby. Was that six days?
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
He's back on TV. OK. So here's why I think this is important.
It is actually very fragile. They have state power, so they could blast everybody. That's totally a thing.
That's ruling through force, but that's not ruling through consent. And actually, ruling through consent is like the best possible option because killing people don't really work well. Like it's a fast solution, but it's not a long term solution.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
Ideally, people would just kind of go along with the thing and they help you carry it. Right. So, the fact that they're moving in the way that they're moving shows you, us, we, that actually they know they're in the minority.
Ejeris
Yeah.
Alicia
Okay. On our side of things, we're not on the back foot, but we're not on the front.
Ejeris
Yes.
Alicia
Splinters, fractures, all the things are still very much here. The segregation of our movement is a serious problem for us, actually. And also, fear and anxiety that is left untended to, and we're still building the capacity and the tools to have an integrated assessment of ourselves at any given point in time for the purposes of knowing what we're actually working with, what capacities we need to build, or what capacities we just might need to point in different directions.
We're still building those muscles. But what do we have going for us? We actually do have infrastructure.
And unlike our ancestors, this ain't the first time. So we have lots of rich history to learn from, that many of our forebearers actually did not have access to in the same way. So that's a benefit.
Also, there's millions of people in this country who are not a part of this movement and are trying to find us. And that's the opportunity. Lots of people want to know, how do I get to a different country than this one?
I don't mean moving. Like, how do we be different? Because this is not what I want.
Ejeris
Yep. Or not what I wanted. Not what I thought I wanted.
Alicia
Correct. And so let this be a plea, I guess, to inspire us to think about how we become more porous, to be a plea, to inspire us, to put down our beefs against each other.
Ejeris
Yes.
Alicia
That's fascism. We don't, yeah. And also to think about how we make our infrastructure as durable as possible for the longest period of time possible.
And I want to say one more thing about the hunker down thing, the hunker down and prepare for the collapse. There's a form of that that is consenting in advance.
Ejeris
Or like collapsing in advance.
Alicia
Yeah. It's like giving them more juice than they maybe have. And it's saying, I don't think we can do it.
And I'm definitely not there yet. I'm definitely not there yet. What I just named is one of their major weaknesses, which is that there is more of us than there is of them.
Ejeris
Yes.
Alicia
And they are not the majority of hearts and minds in this country.
Ejeris
Yes.
Alicia
And the potential is so vast to bring in people who are looking for something different. And that requires particular things of us. So I hope we get there.
Ejeris
We've reached the end of today's episode, and clearly, we didn't get enough time with Alicia. But don't worry, this is just part one. In our last episode of the season, we'll continue the conversation.
In this episode, we discussed power, and whether or not we can break fascism down into characteristics or even a recipe. We also talked about the connection between US fascism and white supremacy. And when we're talking about white supremacy, we mean the belief that white people are superior and should dominate all others in society.
So even beliefs that programs and policies that support communities of color are harmful to white people has some little tinges of white supremacy in it. And there's a lot of supremacists that are being encouraged right now. So if you haven't joined an organization or connected with some of your folks to get involved, our movements really need everyone right now.
Please check out the resources on our website at fascismbarometer.org for action steps and more readings. We appreciate you for joining us. And we're working hard monitoring The Fascism Barometer for you.
And together, we can keep fascism at bay. Watch the skies and subscribe to this feed as we only have a couple more episodes left this season. And we can't wait to share them with you.
And when you share the show with a friend, you've got it. You help fight fascism. Our producer is Phil Surkis.
Our theme is by McLeet Hedero. This podcast is a project of Ejerie Labs. I'm your movement meteorologist, Ejeris Dixon.
See you next time on The Fascism Barometer.