Host and "Movement Meteorologist" welcomes renowned organizer Linda Sarsour to discuss fascism, Palestinian liberation, and the meaning of true solidarity.
In this urgent episode of The Fascism Barometer, host Ejeris Dixon sits down with renowned activist and organizer Linda Sarsour for a powerful conversation on fascism, Palestinian liberation, and the meaning of true solidarity. With over two decades of movement work, Sarsour offers a masterclass on what it means to resist fascism, uplift human dignity, and defend communities under siege. Linda shares why the Palestinian liberation struggle is central to the anti-fascist fight—and how ordinary people can step into powerful roles in extraordinary ways.
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Ejeris: [00:00:00] I'm beyond excited to welcome Linda Sarsour to the Fascism Barometer. Linda is an author, award-winning racial justice and civil rights activist, seasoned community organizer, and mother of three. She's a Palestinian Muslim American, and a self-proclaimed pure New Yorker, born and raised in Brooklyn.
She's the co-founder of the first Muslim organizing platform, empower, change, and co-founder of Until Freedom, an intersectional racial justice organization focused on direct action and power building in communities of color. I can't remember exactly where Linda and I first met. It might've been an action, it might have been a meeting, but.
What I remember is watching and witnessing her deep dedication to fighting injustice. Fighting injustice against the Palestinian people, fighting injustice against Muslim and Arab communities, immigrant communities, women. But truly when there's a community that needs support, [00:01:00] Linda's there. Linda Sarsour is solidarity personified, and we've been doing all these conversations about what solidarity is, what solidarity means.
I'm really excited for her to give us a masterclass on it. Thank you so much for coming, friend.
Linda: you Ejeros for having me. I'm just honored to be in your presence.
Ejeris: Thank you. So we always start with kind of what even do we mean if we're talking about fascism? So. What I'm imagining is you're on your block in Brooklyn, you're interacting with your neighbors. Somebody asks you what even is fascism? Why should we care about it? Why it matter to people like us?
Linda: fascism is one of the most dangerous ideologies. Um. That impacts so many different people in such egregious types of ways. Fascism is, um. An ideology that wants to strip us of our core and central identities, our rights to exist as our whole in full selves. Um, [00:02:00] fascism is an ideology that is above the law, that doesn't care about structure.
Um, fascism. It takes lives, it steals lives. It, it takes from us, um, the things that we need, uh, to survive. it, it is oppositional to everything about not just survival, but being able to thrive, um, in our country, um, in the world. And so for me to be anti-fascist. Is to be an organizer, an activist, who believes in the human rights and dignity of all people.
Like there should be no one in this world that is sitting back as we watch our country devolve into fascism right now.
Ejeris: Yes. I couldn't agree with you more. I remember first reading your book, we Will Not Be Bystanders and I was re-listening to it and out the gate you're talking about fascism in, 2017. In 2018. and I we had gotten to talk then 'cause I was deep, deep in books trying to figure out like, how is this gonna [00:03:00] affect all of our people, you know, and who can I.
Who can I collaborate with to help kind of bring this message around what it does to all of us? One of the ways we're really seeing fascism manifest here in this country is the targeting of the Palestinian Solidarity movement. The targeting of students, of international students, of immigrants, of Muslims and Palestinian communities.
our last episode. We talked about the weaponization of antisemitism. We talked about MAGA manipulation of it and what it actually is versus how it's being used. But I'd love your thought on like what's the real goal of this fascist targeting of Palestinian communities and movements and.
And what should we do about it?
Linda: You know, the movement for Palestinian liberation in this country is a very powerful one, and it's an intersectional one at the intersection of gender justice, of climate, justice of the kind of. [00:04:00] Uh, anti-war movement. of migration and, indigenous rights of land back movement. It really is a movement that encompasses all of us, which is why it is so under threat and why it's being targeted.
It is the fight for free speech. It's the fundamental right to access to, a type of higher education where we could exchange ideas, where we could actually live in a country where we could actually disagree and not agree on everything, because that is what a democracy is. So it's literally. The Palestinian Rights Movement for me is kind of my entire organizing career under this one umbrella because it really speaks to every part of me and all the things that I care about.
I. And this administration and even the one prior to it, unfortunately understood that, and they are watching students of all backgrounds. Um, you know, Palestinians are a very small minority in this country. And so it was not just Palestinian students on the college campuses, it was the Palestinians students and the black students and the queer students and the Jewish students and just young people of conscience that were like, in our generation, [00:05:00] we will not.
Sit idly by while our taxpayer dollars and our higher education institutions are complicit in apartheid and now complicit in genocide. And they saw this incredible solidarity, these microcosms of spaces that were built through these encampments. That were literally the world that I wanted to live in.
Ia. Eris was not watching from the sidelines. I was not watching a news clip on the, you know, six o'clock news. I was not watching clips on social media. I went to the encampments. I was at Columbia University in the first two days of that encampment. And it was the most incredible thing that I had seen in years of organizing.
There were guidelines I had to follow. I had to adhere to principles of respect, of dignity, of all those that were in the encampment. I had to adhere to keeping the encampment clean, to protecting the environment that was around me. I adhere to people's sensitivities. I was not able to eat certain types of foods in certain parts of the encampment because there were people that had sensitivities to different types of [00:06:00] food.
It was. A place, there was a place to study that gave people a, a safe space to be together and actually continue their education. Then there were moments where people could be ceremonial. For example, a religious traditions of Friday, prayers for the Muslims Sabbath for the Jewish students. And every time a different, a student group would enter the center, perform their tradition with the support of their colleagues, of their fellow classmates around them.
Then I got to swatch that group, move out on like a Friday and watch the young Jewish students come in and begin their Sabbath. I mean, it was the most incredible, inclusive, pluralistic place that I've ever been to in a long time. In the movement, no competition, no oppression, Olympics. It was just people being in solidarity under one value.
And Principle of the sanctity of life, and in this case the Palestinian people. And so that's what I witnessed and I witnessed that. And that is, it was the most purest form of solidarity and the building of a, of, of an opportunity of power across the board of every community that was [00:07:00] feeling marginalized in that moment.
And I think people took notice and those in power took notice. And as you know, in this country, the pro-Israel lobby is a very powerful lobby. And that is just the fact, it's not my opinion, it's not a sentiment that I hold. There are statistics around it. We watch it and how it plays out in Congress. I.
And to be clear, our pro-Israel lobby in this country is not a Jewish lobby. In fact, the majority of pro-Israel, uh, Zionists in this country, or Zionists in this country in general, are Christians. These are Christian Zionists and they are the most powerful people in this country and are, are surrounding this current administration.
And some of them work for this administration. And again, they found this. Place of power, of place, of solidarity, of people building deepening relationships and also challenging this administration and its policies in the one previous administration. And they were like, oh no, we're not having this. We are going to target this.
We're going to dismantle it. And to be clear, this is not just, again, a sentiment that we have. It's not just something we think is happening. There's an, in fact, that whole report that's been written about [00:08:00] this from the Heritage Foundation, which is a conservative think tank, that is literally the undergirding of Donald Trump's entire administration, and they wrote this prior to Donald Trump.
Project 2025 in an extension of that report called Project Esther. And they say that within 18 to 24 months of this new administration, we are going to dismantle the pro-Palestinian solidarity movement. Obviously they don't use the term pro-Palestinian, but that is what they say. We know exactly what they're gonna, you know, from their perspective, how they would frame our, organizing work.
And they're implementing every strategy. They're using the courts, they're using higher education as a way to suppress students. They're using our draconian immigration laws. a vague immigration laws to target international students, target people with green cards. they're really using every apparatus, uh, defunding universities who don't adhere to their type of ideology.
they are, you know, erasing DEI programs from all of our universities. A lot of these, uh, DEI programs also [00:09:00] include, you know, things around swana or Southwest Asian, north African, or mena, which is Middle East, north African, or any studies around Palestine. They're removing entire professorships that have been dedicated to the study of the history of Palestine.
So they're doing it. They have a plan. They wrote it out. They put it out publicly for everyone to read. So this is, again, not some underground thing that we know or some intelligence that I received. They are being very unapologetic about targeting our movements, and I believe that. The targeting of the Palestinian Rights movement is really an extension of all the movements of justice that we're all a part of.
Ejeris: when I think about, and unpack what you're saying, it feels like in these encampments you witnessed almost like the liberated world that we want. Right. And we witnessed our vision of an anti-fascist world. So it means that the Palestinian liberation struggle is central to the anti-fascist struggle, right?
Like these are part and parcel. They go together. And, um, I'm so inspired [00:10:00] by the young people, like I'm so inspired by the bravery, by the courage, and. how they're challenging these times in this moment and how we support them, right?
As, former younger people in the struggle And so as we're thinking about this connection between Palestinian liberation and anti-fascist work, 'cause there were a lot of games played, in the last year or two around how we have to prioritize struggles right maybe push back on maga first, let's hold off on what's happening with the genocide and Gaza, right.
And, um. I think in my first email to you, I had said, and I feel this in my bones, like, it feels really clear we failed Palestinian communities. It feels really clear. And, um, there's a part of me that connects with this, because I, I know what, generational state violence means. I know what that means and this, [00:11:00] this whole podcast is about fascism, but it's about fascism from the communities who feel it first and feel it most and how we understand it so that we can do the organizing we need to do.
and so one of the things I've been thinking about, I'm not the only one talking about this. So many people are saying this is about power and organizing power. there are issues where there is more difference between the Democrats and the Republicans, but when we are talking about what's happening in Gaza, what we're talking about, what our options look like, what power building looks like, there can be a lot of similarities, between how some Democrats and Republicans treat.
Palestinians and the Palestinians struggle. It feels like we have not built the organizing power. We need to stop this genocide and things are horrifying. And I know that you are holding that. I'm wondering What's your call to us? All people [00:12:00] of conscience. You know, some people who listen to this podcast are organizers and activists, and some people are, I am so mad about what's happening, and I wanna get involved people.
So what do we need to do to do better and to build more power and to continue to fla and support Palestinian communities?
Linda: I really appreciate that. Jarris, it's something I've been. Thinking about a lot in the last almost 20 months of genocide where we have failed as a movement. And there are many moments where I can point to the failures that we've had. And you know, we are a flawed movement made up of really good and well-intentioned people.
we're also stuck in the nonprofit industrial complex where especially organizations that are led by black women or people of color or marginalized people are always fighting to pay, you know, for the next payroll to be met. versus really focusing on envisioning what we want for our communities.
We're also stuck in the rapid response as we always have been, as people of color, always fighting back, fighting back, and not [00:13:00] being given the opportunity to really focus on what is it that we actually want. Like what does freedom actually look like and how do we get there if we're always just fighting, fighting, fighting, and that's part of it.
And, and some of that is not our fault. Um, it's the waves and the conditions that we are in. as you know, I'm, friends and part of many movements, you know, um, been part of the Medicare for All movement for a long time. I come out of the Immigrant Rights Movement.
I worked on civil liberties and civil rights. I come outta the Police Accountability Movement, or what people will say is the Black Lives Matter movement. And you know, I think I see this. About myself with all humility that I feel like I get to say this because I have been in a movement for 25 years that has never requested reciprocation for the communities I come from.
I will show up wherever, whenever, and I'm willing to put my body on the line for people that I don't know. Because what I believe, the fundamental principles that I hold are universal to everyone. And if I see people hurt and harmed, I'm going to show up. And I feel like in this moment there has to be some sort of, [00:14:00] decision that we make, that there's nothing that takes precedent over genocide and especially not one that we are funding directly.
And I think people will say to me all the time, you know. There's a horror happening in Sudan and in Congo, and of course, to say to free Palestine is not to take away from the horror that others are experiencing. But if we can't even address our direct complicity in the genocide of the Palestinian people, then we cannot help the people of the Congo nor the Sudan, nor the white Uyghur Muslims in China, nor the many other oppressed people around the world, you know?
For me, for example, as someone who comes out of also the Women's March, you can't be a, an organization that wants to claim that you support women's reproductive rights, right? When you have, thousands of women having miscarriages in a place like Gaza right now where there's no medical care, no prenatal care, there are women who are pregnant, who have no access to resources, even if there were women who wanted to decide to have access to reproductive healthcare, there is none.
It does not exist. Exist in, in Gaza. so if you are truly someone who cares [00:15:00] about women's rights and the rights of women, Gaza is a great litmus test for that, right? Um, when we think about the environmental catastrophe of this world that we might not even know, we might, we don't know if we're gonna be around 10 or 20 years because of the environmental catastrophe.
Now, imagine. The types of bombs and chemicals that are being used on Gaza. There's been more bombs dropped on a little small strip of land in Gaza than we've seen in World War ii. Like this is really a serious situation. And so it's not just a matter of empathy for the Palestinian people, it's the implications on our values and also on the world and how this is gonna impact the world.
We have every day, as you know, in communities across the country, closing down schools, closing down hospitals. Watching the over-policing of mentally ill folks in places like New York City instead of providing them with affordable care and housing and, and services that they require to be healthy people, to be able to, to function in our society.
And they'll tell you, we don't have money for that. We don't [00:16:00] have money for. new schools. We don't have money for opening a new clinic. We're always in this place of scarcity In this country, our elected officials tell us, oh, you want Medicare for all? Well, that's a, you know, pie in the sky. How is that possible when in the last just 20 months of genocide, every couple of weeks we have members of Congress who go to the floor and all of a sudden a magic pot of billions of dollars just emerges, and we're sending that to an apartheid regime.
To kill innocent civilians in a small strip of land where people can't get in or get out. and so that's where my, analysis is that. It's not about centering the Palestinians as, as the most egregious form of injustice in the world. It is understanding that it brings all of the, our principles and values as a movement into one literal catastrophe, urgent moment.
And so I can't understand how people think that they're gonna get some, protect the rights of black people in this country, or protect democracy or get us more [00:17:00] resources in, in, you know, some moral federal budget. While there's a genocide that's happening, that's being supported by both Republicans and Democrats, and so it's like we're in the skewed place There is no holding on in Gaza because it's a matter of life and death. Like this is not even a question about. Let's end the occupation of the Palestinian people, which has been going on for 77 years. This is literally like every day that we don't do what we're supposed to do, that we don't hold our country accountable.
More life is being lost. I have seen imagery, jarris that I've only read about in books. I've never witnessed this live. And, and I'll just say this also about our Palestinian colleagues that are in the movement, and I just put this out there, even if they're not your colleagues in the movement, but even your neighbors, your friends, your fellow classmates, like I'm in awe of Palestinians.
And I say that again with all humility. Like we have to get up every day in a world where we have to pay bills and do normal things that normal people do. Do our laundry, make sure our kids are fed in a world that is annihilating our people. Like there is a. [00:18:00] an ethnic cleansing campaign in Gaza, in the West Bank in Palestine, and then here in the United States.
We are being suppressed. We are being criminalized just for being Palestinian, and also by extension, our friends who are saying, please stop killing these children and their parents. they too are being suppressed. We are watching them literally sacrifice, we're allowing right wing Zionists in this country to literally erode our entire constitution to protect.
An apartheid state, and again, it's not my opinion, it's not my sentiment. Every international body, every HU respectable human rights organizations has defined the state of Israel as an apartheid state, just as we saw with apartheid South Africa. And there are people of this country willing to erode our democracy for an apartheid state.
And this is where the American people have to say, regardless of Palestinians, the Israelis, whatever, this is what we're not gonna allow. I. we should and be committed to [00:19:00] our own democracy and the right to have differing opinions in this country and the right for Palestinians and those who are our friends, to say we support Palestinians and their right, to number one, to be free and to be liberate, but also the right of our Palestinian colleagues to say.
Free Palestine and to wanna fight for their communities. And so, I think our movements weren't also prepared. Lastly, I'll say this, Jarius is like, you know, people see these videos of these students being kidnapped literally outside of their homes or outside their college campuses. And a lot of people in our movements were acting brand new.
They were like so taken aback. They were like, huh. This is so outrageous, like I can't believe it. the, the way that I got here into the movement is I watched those same kidnappings happen in the post nine 11 era. We passed the Patriot Act twice. We allowed for the unwarranted surveillance of communities.
We literally gave reign to our government to basically quote, find the terrorists. There was no Department of Homeland security before 2003. Why did we allow that? And. They [00:20:00] said that the reason why we needed the Department of Homeland Security is so that we can quote, find the terrorists. And the American public believed that the terrorists were enemies within and they were people that looked like me, that prayed like me, that were from the communities I was from.
And so when these fathers were being kidnapped in New York City post nine 11, when we were opening units in the Bureau of Prisons where people were being convicted on secret evidence, like imagine spending 30 years in prison, but you don't know why you're in there because apparently. You're been convicted on secret evidence We allowed this government to erode our right and the people, the American public was like, you know what? I'm willing to risk some rights if that means, you know, we're gonna. Be safe in the long run. And a lot of people in our movements were silent. They didn't wanna touch issues impacting Muslim, they didn't wanna work on national security reform.
They didn't wanna touch the counter-terrorism, conversations that we were having. And so we stayed kind of out on our own. And here we are, almost 20 some odd years later, watching the same things happen and everyone's acting brand new. But for me, it's not brand new. I am not shocked by any of this because I've seen [00:21:00] it happen.
It's how I got in this movement and it's why I'm still here.
Ejeris: Yeah. there's a connection there between black and Palestinian struggles around around the targeting of activists around the disappearing of activists. Around the assassination of activists, right? There is a piece around, This courage because it feels like there's a piece around the intersection of courage, fear, self preservation.
You know, because they are going after organizations, they're going after students, they're going after people in the Palestinian solidarity movement. Hard and, and people are having to make some, some choices, right? And what, what we know about the trajectory of fascism is you don't compromise with fascists, you do not compromise. And you, do not imagine yourself to, like they may tell you, oh, you'll be safe if you just go with us. Right? But that's just temporary. they just pick people off one by one. So I'm, what you're talking about is [00:22:00] also this hard fought year after year.
Courage that you have built, for yourself, but in the communities and the communities you organize with. And I know because we've done some organizing together, right? Like what that, means and looks like to ' cause courage. Doesn't mean we're not scared, right? Courage means we keep going.
Courage means we have conviction. So I'm wondering, like, it feels like this piece about courage is the foundation of the solidarity that we need, and I'm wondering if you have some messages around where courage comes from for you and our folks can cultivate the courage they need in these times.
Linda: Absolutely. Um, you know, for me and Jarris, courage comes from love. I love my family. I love my community that I come from. I love sister communities that I've organized with. You know, when I. Leave New York City to go live in Louisville, Kentucky. I didn't know who Breonna Taylor was. I never met Breonna Taylor.
But what I knew about Breonna Taylor was that she deserved to live. [00:23:00] And then I got to meet her mom, Tamika Palmer. And Tamika Palmer is not just a woman who lost her daughter. She's a a whole person. who is now someone that I consider a sister of mine, so for me it's, it's based on a lot of deep relationships that I have built, like.
Like you are worth fighting for it. Jarris like my friends are worth fighting for. Like people's children are worth fighting for. My children are worth fighting for. And that's what gets me up every day. I always say to people, the day that I stop fighting, it must be 'cause I stop loving.
And that's not possible because I'm not gonna ever stop loving the people that I love. Especially those that are like my children, for example. And for me, I. Believe that fear is a choice. Like you, you, you actually get to decide whether you want to be afraid or not, and I know that doesn't sound.
Uh, to some people it seems like fear is a natural like thing. I don't believe that. I don't believe that that fear is natural. That is why our opposition in fascists, they fear monger, right? They are instilling in us this fear because it's actually not [00:24:00] n natural. Because if it was natural, then we would just be afraid all on our own.
But they require propaganda. They require tactics to make us. Fearful so that we do not challenge fascists, that we do not challenge authoritarianism. So I don't actually believe that to be afraid is a natural thing. I, I think we choose sometimes to be, afraid. I'm not afraid. I've never been afraid. And one of the things also as part of this, and this is not for everybody, a juris, but I like people to see me and hear me in context.
I'm a Muslim also, and there are some people in our movements who are people of faith. And that is central to how I organize. And I'll give you an example about, a belief that keeps me moving as a Muslim. In Islam, we believe in something called. ZI is, wealth or blessings that is bestowed upon you by God.
And so, for example, a lot of people worry about their livelihood, their self preservation, right? They worry that they're gonna lose resources. I am in the belief that these people don't have power over my resources and that when they. Believe they control something that is of my [00:25:00] livelihood, that one door closes and that wasn't meant for me in the first place.
And guess what? Jeris another door opens for me. So I don't base my reactions or the ways in which I decide to say or not say something based on this idea that I. I'm going to lose a resource or some sort of monetary, because that is also what capitalism has done to us. We wanna make sure that we got what we need.
You know, everything's always about pay the mortgage and pay the rent. Your mortgage and rent We'll figure that out. We will get that paid somehow. Um, there are ways to do that with principles and we've seen that done in many of the movements that came prior to us. and I also say this Jarris, that if you look at previous movements, um.
There's always been people in our movements that have had to sacrifice more than others, and there are, it's never everybody. So this is also not a conversation for everyone. We're not telling everybody go outside and be on the front lines and put your whole livelihood on the table. Put your family on the line.
That is not what we're asking of people. Some of us have made that decision to do that, and we are content in our decision. I don't [00:26:00] ask people for anything because what is meant for me is going to come. We're asking people to have the basic courage to look at something and say, this is wrong, and to be able to be in your small circles, whether it's at your company, at the place of work, and to say, listen, I just want you to know where I stand on this.
This is wrong. That when you hear someone that is, uh, demeaning someone around you who's a person of color, who's undocumented, who's a member of a marginalized community, that you step in and say, Hey. I don't appreciate that. I don't agree with that.
To challenge people in your spaces because to challenge fascism is not just to do the big stuff, it's also to do the little stuff that is in our most hyper-local parts of our, movements.
A lot of times people at Jarris, they see. The activists and the organizers like Linda Sarsour or whoever else you wanna kind of bring up in the movement. I'm not asking you to Bebe, I put me out of the picture, call me outlandish and, and outrageous. I really just want people to really focus on the small things that we do.
I was, I'm, [00:27:00] you know, at a higher education conference and a woman came to me and said. I'm a visiting, scholar to this country. I don't have a US citizenship here, and I feel so inadequate. You know, I feel like I'm, I'm scared. I'm worried about my immigration status. I, I wanna finish out my year here, you know, things like that.
And sharing that with me with a lot of shame. And I looked at her and I said, there's nothing to be ashamed about. We are not asking someone like you, you are not the person in this moment that I want to be on the front lines. I said to her, but you know what you can do? You could look at a Palestinian student in your classroom.
You could whisper to them and say, I see you. What is happening to your people is wrong. Because sometimes people just wanna make sure, is it just us? Does anyone in this world see our humanity? And sometimes even something as simple as reaffirming someone's humanity in of itself is a radical act in this moment.
And so for me, again, courage is necessary in this moment. It comes and shows in different ways. and for me, I just made the decision in my life, I'm willing to put it all on the line against fascism. [00:28:00] Why? Because I also will tell you what Jerry said. I'm gonna be a grandma in October of this year,
Ejeris: Oh, blessings on
Linda: Yes. I mean, the, the every, I'm just very blessed, even amidst genocide and all the horror and the loss. You know, I, I, I feel the blessings continue to come and I will just say that. I always say to people that we are also a movement that has this addiction to instant gratification. We wanna win tomorrow.
We're always in the electoral cycle. It's like winning and losing is based on an electoral cycle or winning a local piece of legislation, which I'm not saying are not important. I. But I am not interested in instant gratification. I want to see transformation for my communities, for my country.
And so for me, I also have the solace knowing that even if I don't see the fruits of my labor, even if I don't see my vision of what true freedom and liberation look like for all of us, my is, and I'm gonna be a part of that even if I'm not around to experience it myself. And so my message to people is, number one, be [00:29:00] brave in this moment.
Be brave, be courageous because you are gonna have to look back at yourself 20 years from now and say, where were you? What did you say? What did you do in this moment? The second thing also, as I just said, is that don't look for the win tomorrow. Don't talk to me about 2026 and 2028. Those are important intervals in the mo in the movement.
Those are alleviations of harm or at least addressing some harm. But that is not freedom. That is not liberation. I want you to believe and fight for a world that you yourself may not experience. And I do wish a jarris that I'm around for freedom. I wanna be there. I wanna smell it. I wanna touch it. I want you to be there.
But I'm also okay knowing that I might not be there because I'm here today, Jarris, and you are here today because somebody in this country bled for us. They sacrificed for us. they sacrificed their families and their livelihoods, their reputations, everything, so that I could have the right to vote, that I could be a woman and have access to reproductive healthcare in this country that I could be, uh, my [00:30:00] immigrant parents could have the opportunity to immigrate to this country.
Is because somebody sacrificed for me and I wanna make those same sacrifices for some next generations. And also ager is to make sure that we got people in our generation people could look to. Because if, if 20 years from now, they still gotta go back to Dr. King and they gotta go
back to Rosa Park. We are in big trouble, so we gotta, I'm not saying don't go back there.
I'm saying go back there and also come to us and say, even in this generation, there were some people that really were committed to true values of justice and freedom, and they were willing to put it on the line. I.
Ejeris: Yes. I mean, I, had the blessing of being mentored by civil rights leaders. I know you have by, folks who are in black power movements, folks who. Didn't see a cent of the money that people can see in organizations now. And that's, that's not what it was about. People who, who watched their friends, their fellow activists get killed and kept, going.
And young, [00:31:00] young people, young people who gave so much for freedom. And so I hear exactly what you're saying. There's this piece around what do we owe from what we've inherited. Then also like what do we bestow? Like what are we, what are we offering towards the future? And um, the offering in organizing against fascism is that it takes a broad set of people to defeat.
It takes broad, broad movements. There is a space for everyone. And you're right, There's a role for a teacher. There is a role for someone who can never go to a protest but can make a phone call. There is a role for someone who's just like, I'm just gonna talk to the people on my block.
Right? who at the daycare? You know, I'm just gonna put up some flyers. I saw y'all have new stickers. I'm gonna put some stickers up what was it? It's like
fight fascism free Palestine stickers
Ejeris: and that's, that's the piece.
There's a piece where we are inviting people. 'cause we want, [00:32:00] movements that are invitations and we're inviting people in. so. in addition to the podcast, we've got listening guides. We have resources. We put out action steps every episode. We encourage people to listen with their families and their friends and discuss and let that be the first step in their journey.
So what are the key action steps that you wanna offer to the Fascism Barometer community? because there is a. Yes. People don't have to be you in this movement. They, people don't have to be me. But there is a piece that the more that all of us do, the more that we are all supported, right? Because we wanna have your back, right?
we wanna support Palestinian communities. We wanna support the Palestinian liberation struggle also. 'cause we wanna end fascism and we believe in the human rights of, of all people, right? So. What are the action steps we need to be in right relationship?
Linda: This is the most important part of anything that I do jarris, because as an organizer, um, I [00:33:00] wanna organize, I want you to feel like, yes, you got some good substance, you got, you know, some inspiration. But it's also time to do something. We're in the do something part of, of fascism right now. The first thing I'll say to folks, and this may seem, a little mundane or may not seem as um, you know, technical, but you know this, in the Black Lives Matter movement or racial justice movements we're a part of, people always say, um.
We must love and protect one another. We have nothing to lose but our chains. And I always say to people, how am I supposed to love and protect you if I don't know you? And so I always say to people, the most simplest thing we could start doing right now is really start building just with the people around us.
We live in a, a society of individualism. Some people don't even know who their neighbors are. We're in, we're, we're addicted to the kind of internet and to like social media platform. Forms. And sometimes we're working in a corporation or in a company and we walk by people in cubicles. We don't even know who they are or their names.
We'll go into the, you know, lounge and we'll go heat up our food for lunch and don't even look over to people and say, Hey, good morning. What's your name? You know, where are you from? [00:34:00] And so I just say to people, that's the most powerful thing. Um, when you watch these abductions by ice of your neighbors, like if you know them.
And you've broke bread with them. You know their children. Your children play together. There's something about that relationship that gives you the kind of courage to step in to at least do the bare minimum of recording ice agents or feeling like you could say, Hey. Those are my neighbors backup.
Or even if you feel safe enough to stand and say, no, you are not taking my neighbors. Where's your search warrant? Et cetera. So start getting to know one another. Put the phones down while you're walking. You know, look at people in the eye. There's people that are feeling very lonely in this country, um, and are not getting that kind of interpersonal connection.
I'm a kind of person I, I will talk to. I'll be on the train. I will talk to anybody. I'll be getting a cup of coffee at the coffee shop. Everybody's hearing my voice. I'm getting, I'm getting personal stories. I mean, this is the kind of world that I wanna live in. The second one is support those who are doing the work.
Um, and that means that we're not asking you to be the one all the way outside, but, but support the ones that are outside and especially in the context of Palestine. [00:35:00] As you know, philanthropy is not very courageous. Um, they have, in fact, some have defunded organizations that do Palestine work and not just Palestinian organizations.
Black-LED organizations that do pro-Palestine work or immigrant rights organization or climate organizations. And so find these organizations because in order for us to fight fascism, we cannot be only solely funded by the kind of nonprofit, industrial complex. We have to be self-funded. And a lot of people will say, Linda, I'm listening to this podcast, and I I hear you, but you know, what do I got?
What am I gonna do? Like, I can only give you like 20 bucks. Like, that's what I have. And I say to people, what if 20 of your friends and people in your family gave an a local nonprofit organization in your community each $20 a month, that's $400 a month? And guess what? As someone who ran a local grassroots organization in New York City, guess what?
You paid my light bill. Like, do not ever underestimate. The $5, the $20, the $50 that you are given. Now, if you're someone that has more than that, we'll take that too. I think that the idea here is just to, to be [00:36:00] able to self resource our work because it keeps us courageous and independent and we don't have to self-censor and we get to do the work in the way that we know it has to be done.
So following organizations and supporting organizations like the US Campaign for Palestinian Rights, supporting groups like the Arab Resource Organizing Center out in the Bay Area, you know, m Empower Change. And when we say m we mean the Letter M Power Change. These are, or some, just some of many organizations that are outside, you know, the movement for Black Lives, the, the rising majority.
Many of these organizations that have stepped up in this moment and have kind of put it all on the line. Um, and they are not Palestinian led organizations. Groups like the Dream Defenders, who I love very dearly, um, out in Florida, who have been doing a lot of national work and now have a, they squatted up now in New York.
So now I got squad Dream defenders in New York. Look for those orged, follow them, share their posts, support them, show up to their actions. And even on the, the idea of showing up. A lot of people jarris, will say, yeah, I heard there was a rally [00:37:00] somewhere down the street or whatever, but like, you know, ain't nobody really gonna miss me there.
You know, there's a lot of underestimation of one person's power, of, of their body being somewhere. And as an organizer, I will tell you, mass mobilization is one plus one plus one equals a lot of people. And so, yes, you actually matter. Your body matters. When you bring your friend to a rally, it matters And no, and yes, I will miss.
You. If you're not there, we will miss you if you're not there. So any opportunity you get to show up with your body, please do that. And if it means that you feel like you wanna wear a mask or you don't necessarily feel safe, it's, you know, it's evolutionary little by little, I don't want you to come out.
Right away. I want you to be of course, comfortable as, as you kind of come out in solidarity, but whether it's you're showing up for an immigrant family that is at risk of deportation, you're showing up for the Palestinian Rights Movement for, you know, whatever is happening. I mean there, one thing I was saying the other day or Jarris, is that you would think with the way we have so much distractions in the way that mainstream media is set up, you would think no black people got killed by police in the last year.
Because we don't hear the Breonna [00:38:00] Taylors and the George Floyd types, but there are. Thousands. And since George Floyd, since 2020, there have been thousands of people in this country have been killed at the hands of police. But we don't hear about it because it's not on social media or it's not in the media.
So again, wherever there's an injustice, you hear about something local in your community, there's a food pantry being shut down. There's something happening. Show up. Your presence, your body is actually critical and important in this moment. And the last thing that I'll say, of course, is. No matter what I, and I'm also an electoral organizer and I still believe in democracy whether I want to sometimes or not.
And I believe in all politics, being local, I don't believe, um, I know we've been disappointed, we've been disenfranchised, all of net things on the national level. I. But oftentimes the decisions that are being made about your local community, about your education, funding, about healthcare, access, about things like whether you have good transportation or not, is happening at the local level.
So please, as disenfranchised as you feel from national politics, from federal politics, from [00:39:00] presidential politics, do not give up on your local politics. There are incredible, marginalized people that are running in your communities to be on your city council, to be your local mayors, to be your commissioners, to hold positions that.
Actually impact your daily life. They impact your property taxes. They impact the ways in which you are paying, whether, whether the electric company has monopoly over the electricity of your can be so many big things that actually I've started to notice even more so as as an adult with a lot of responsibilities these days.
Yes, so all politics is local. Uh, there's also an election sometimes once, twice, three times per year. And people just wake up every either two years or four years. So all politics is local. Um, I know that it's hard for me to tell you to believe in democracy, but I still feel like there's a slither there that's left, which is why we have to fight fascism to at least protect the little that we have.
And hopefully when we protect the little that we have, we're gonna be able to expand it to ensure that everybody's included.
Ejeris: Yes, and democracy is what we build together. On the road to the [00:40:00] liberation that we both dream of, that we hope for in our lifetimes, but we're not sure. But you've heard it here. Linda Sarsour is telling you that your presence matters in this movement. This is the invitation for you. This is the invitation for you to get more involved.
If you have been listening to these episodes, but you have not taken an action yet, we are asking you to get involved. 'cause this is the time. There is no more time. This is the time, Linda. I. I know you had 5 million places to be, than here, but we are so grateful that you took this time with us. it was a lesson, it was healing and it was inspiring and, um, I'm always grateful to be in your presence, so thank you so much for, sharing this time with us and the
Linda: Thank you, Jarris. And I just wanted to say one last thing to all of, um, your wonderful listeners and the many people that will listen to this is that. Yeah. This is not also about always agreeing with everything, right? We are in that moment where we are beyond the, let's all agree, we're [00:41:00] beyond that, we're preaching to the choir.
we can disagree and we could still be in community with one another. And that unity is not uniformity against fascism. Like we don't have to be all the same and believe all the same things. This is a, a state of emergency. and I'm just asking people to open your hearts just a little bit more, open your minds just a little bit more and realize that we are in this together.
Whether people are in power are telling you that or not. I'm telling you, a jarris is telling you we are in this together and we gotta fight together.
Ejeris: Yes. Thank you friend.
I, I, I'm gonna want pictures. I'm gonna want pictures.[00:42:00]
Oh, so we have it right? Um, yes. I love those fight fascism free Palestine stickers that y'all have there.
Then we'll edit it in.
All right, Phil, is there anything more that we need from Linda? Are you waiting for the file?[00:43:00]
Do you have a second, Linda? To like wait a little bit. Okay. Yeah.
We're so excited.
This should air on, um, June 9th. I'll send you all the info, you know, share, share however you want. I think it's gonna be a really powerful episode.
Yeah. No, no. And I always call, I. No, this is, this is an, this is an education project masquerading as a podcast. I'm trying to like, be there while people are doing dishes and like their laundry and stuff. Like we're trying to accompany, like Reg, we're trying to create more space for like regular, everyday people [00:44:00] who want to get involved to, to hear more about how they get involved in our movements.
So it's just like I'm, I'm not interested in the left talking to the left stuff.