The fascism barometer remains high. Host Ejeris Dixon welcomes Organizer Isaac Ontiveros to break down the unlikely partnerships that can fuel fascist movements.
Isaac Ontiveros joins the Fascism Barometer to break down the types of organizational collaborations that are needed in the US to defeat fascism. Isaac and Ejeris discuss coalitions, broad fronts, and united fronts, and what it takes to build and maintain them. Ejeris and Isaac also discuss strategies folks have used to defeat fascist movements and the unlikely partnerships that can happen.
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Podcast production by Phil Surkis
Intro Music by Meklit Hadero
The Fascism Barometer Podcast is an Ejerie Labs Project. Thank you for joining the movement.
Ejeris Dixon: Hi friends, welcome to the Fascism Barometer. I'm Ejeris Dixon, your Movement Meteorologist. And The Barometer is an educational project where we learn together what fascism is, how to stay safe, and how to create democracy and liberation for us all. As a Black queer feminist, I exist at the intersections of [00:01:00] communities that fascists see as the enemy.
And for a long time, I have deeply desired a way for us to understand and measure the threat of fascism, and how it impacts my loved ones, your loved ones. and marginalized communities as a whole. In each episode, we work to learn what fascism is from the perspectives of each of our guests and what we can do about it.
And as we unpack the pressure that fascism puts on all of us, we use the inspiration of a barometer. So as barometers measure pressure, we seek to understand and measure fascism and fascist movements in the United States. So I'm looking at the fascism barometer today and it's reading continues to be high.
The presidential election happened weeks ago, and the Trump administration is working to flood the zone, which is a phrase and strategy that Steve Bannon, a Trump advisor, named years ago. The goal of flooding the zone is to overwhelm us and the media with [00:02:00] developments, scandals, and terrible things. Each of these individual things would be a big deal if they were happening singularly.
But when it all happens together, it's very hard to keep track of and we start to accept the changes that are happening in our lives and in society. I know you're anxious. I'm anxious too. I'm anxious about the safety of targeted communities. I'm anxious for all of us who are opposed to fascism. I'm anxious about the rising power of fascist movements, but I know that we can navigate the storm together.
And that we're safer in community. As we say here, fascism is best fought with massive amounts of people power. And that's what we're building here. And by listening, you're joining the movement.
Before we get to today's guest, the brilliant Isaac Ontiveros, here is the latest update on fascism and what to watch out for.[00:03:00]
Welcome to the fascism roundup. In this segment, we talk about current trends in fascism in the United States. So a really bad bill passed this week, which is known as House Resolution 94 95, but it's also called the Terror Financing and Tax Penalties on American Hostages Act. So it has a provision that makes it easier to label nonprofits as terrorist supporters, and then subsequently remove their nonprofit.
status. So this bill is likely not to pass the current Senate. However, in January, when the new Congress starts, people are expecting that this bill could be introduced then and could pass both the House and the Senate. So let's break down what actually is happening. First, there is already a law that makes it illegal for organizations to provide support to terrorism, and there has been since the [00:04:00] 90s.
But this bill gives the Secretary of Treasury the power to decide that a nonprofit is supporting terrorism. And under the legislation, the federal government does not have to disclose evidence of this accusation or allegation. So the burden of proof is put on the organization to show that they're not guilty.
Organizations get 90 days, only 90 days, from when the letter is sent or even postmarked. And then they have to prove to the satisfaction of the Secretary of the Treasury that they are not supporting terrorism. So this threat alone can change how an organization operates. Removing nonprofit status can make it very difficult for an organization to receive donations and funding.
And this new bill could be used to hurt needed service organizations and advocacy organizations, like groups that serve immigrants, groups that support Arab and Muslim communities, and groups like the ACLU that challenge [00:05:00] repressive policies. Let's be clear, Transcribed This isn't about terrorism, this is about having a fast and efficient strategy for an administration to target organizations who have opposing politics.
And it continues Trump's pursuit of what he calls the enemy within. This is chilling. In more news, Trump has named several cabinet appointments. And they are a whole mess, describing all of them would be an entire episode. But the through line that journalists are speaking to is that there's a theme of personal loyalty throughout these cabinet appointees, a willingness and interest to pursue Trump's enemies and a desire to reduce the effectiveness of federal agencies.
So we'll start with RFK Jr, who's been named as the Secretary of Health and Human Services. So he has multiple views that are in contradiction with science. Which is definitely a problem in that rule. He's stated that there's no vaccine [00:06:00] that is safe. And he's also entertained the idea, saying that the pandemic was a plannedemic, and it was a sinister scheme planned from the outset.
Which is just Both bizarre and terrifying. So Trump's new pick for Attorney General, Pam Bondi, is a long time Trump loyalist, and was part of his defense team for his impeachment trial. Then we also have Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy, who are the co leads of what's being called the Department of Government Efficiency.
Now, this is not a part of the government officially, However, there are multiple ways for their recommendations to be moved through policy. And they're threatening to fire hundreds of federal employees and reduce federal regulations. Next, we go to Stephen Miller, who's going to be the creator of Trump's border policy.
He's been named the deputy [00:07:00] chief of staff. He is the architect of the Muslim ban from Trump's first administration and of the family separation policy. On top of that, he's the grandchild of immigrants. So, he will be leading this plan of mass deportations of millions of undocumented immigrants. But he plans not only to deport undocumented immigrants, he also has named plans of revoking the status of legal immigrants.
Which is terrifying. Now, the Senate has to confirm these appointments. And there's conversation that some Republican Senators are planning to oppose these appointments. Yet we're also hearing of threats to Senators. A Trump advisor has named If Republican senators vote against these appointments, Trump will ensure that they lose their primaries and that those campaigns will be funded by Elon Musk.
But I hear you. You may say to me, Ejeris, why should I care about these federal agencies? What have they ever done for me? [00:08:00] And it's true. Discriminatory and oppressive actions have occurred out of many federal agencies. However, a fascist takeover of the government makes us all less safe, and people can lose access to critical services.
Last, as all of this is happening, the horrific war is continuing in Gaza, it's expanded to Lebanon, the death toll is massive, upwards of 44, 000 people. It's heartbreaking. And repression of anti war, pro ceasefire, and pro Palestinian movements continue. So, there's a manipulation occurring of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which bars schools receiving federal funding from creating or permitting a hostile environment for students on the basis of race or national origin.
And there's this film called Israelism, about a Jewish American student who learns more about the brutal treatment of Palestinians, and starts to question her support [00:09:00] for Israel. Now, there's all of these anti Semitic complaints that have been filed against universities for showing this film or for having educational events.
But again, this film focuses on a Jewish American student. It has a Jewish producer. Yet universities are in fear of losing their federal funding and are choosing to cancel events around this really critical film and need a discourse. So, when a government is used by right wing movements to threaten universities and to threaten and repress free speech, it's a tactic that's often used within fascist and authoritarian governments.
So, the barometer continues to read high, but I know that we can face this.[00:10:00]
I'm so excited to have Isaac Ontiveros here today. Isaac and I have crossed paths many times in a whole variety of social justice spaces. And what I love about him? is his ability to make complex concepts sharp, clear, and accessible. A couple of years ago, I went to a workshop that he facilitated where he spoke to the alliances that collaborated to defeat the Nazi party in Germany.
And it was the most crisp way that someone could talk about the collaborations we need to defeat fascism that I'd heard. Isaac has been an activist and an organizer for quite a long time, and I'm just so excited to have him on the Fascism Barometer today. Thank you Welcome friend.
Isaac Ontiveros: Hey, thank you for having me.
Ejeris Dixon: So, one of the places I really like to start with this podcast is talking about how we talk about fascism and how you talk about fascism, not kind of, I don't know, in all of the activist settings, [00:11:00] but how you talk about fascism with like your family, with your friends, in ways that everyone can understand.
So for you, how would you describe fascism and. Why does it matter to you and the communities you're from?
Isaac Ontiveros: Well, that's a good question. So I think it's been exciting, including listening to your podcast about people understand big F or small F fascism, or even fascisms, or understanding the ways that when we talk about fascism, we're talking about these broad historical Projects, these movements, and we're also talking about the ways that fascistic policies and ways of life even exist in the society that we live in and have in countries like the United States have for a long time.
When I am talking about fascism with my friends and family, which at this point in my life. Are usually also very often my political comrades, you know, I think we talk a lot about the ways in which fascism [00:12:00] emerges in specific time, place, and conditions. And I think that's important because it's an invitation for us to think rigorously about our own times, place, and conditions.
But broadly speaking, when I think about fascism, I'm thinking about movements that have a fiercely nationalist character and usually an ethno nationalist character. I'm thinking about the xenophobia and agitations around in group and out group criminalization and dehumanization and violence. I'm thinking about the relationship.
I'm thinking about fascism as an expansionist ideology. I was just thinking about in preparation for this conversation, we talk a lot about authoritarianism, which is fine. Yeah. But I think that we also can be invited to think about this term that's less used now and probably has its own spotty.
Problems, but [00:13:00] totalitarianism, this idea of an ideology that's kind of top to bottom that seeks to control like the private and public and bodily sphere of society, you know, the other things that I think your previous guests have outlined to, I think are important to think about, especially in these times is.
Fascism's rigidly patriarchal nature. It's anti equality nature. It's being fiercely against egalitarianism and emancipatory social progress. I also think it's important when we think about fascism to understand it's fiercely anti communist, anti union elements. And that in fact, if we look historically, we see fascism emerging In its mind to resist these things.
I think finally. When we think about fascism, and when I talk about it with my friends and family, we also, as I said earlier, need to understand that we're not just talking about movements [00:14:00] here in the United States, we're talking about, you know, whether it's MAGA, MAGA's relationship to the fascism of Israeli people.
Zionism, the fascism of the Hindutva project in India. We're talking about a broad global network of deeply dangerous movements.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah. There's a lot of conversation where people are talking about how what's happening here in the United States is just a part of global fascist movements. Whether we're talking about what's happened in Hungary, people have talked about Turkey, people have talked about Brazil, the Philippines, and how there's a way that right wing movements all around the world are really gaining in traction.
I'd love to circle back to what you were talking about around time, place, and conditions. Like this idea that there are certain. political developments, certain things happening in society that allow fascism to grow. And I'm [00:15:00] curious around if you have a sense of, of why fascism seems to be rising right now and here in the U.
S.
Isaac Ontiveros: I mean, if we look at fascist projects historically and globally, we can see often that they emerge in conditions of social and economic crisis. I think that we live in a kind of long and protracted crisis that's brought about by unresolved struggles of the 20th century, about deep structural crisis brought on by the neoliberal project, by the ravages on the environment and on peoples and on individuals of capitalism in this moment.
Yeah.
Isaac Ontiveros: These movements are dealing with economic and social instability, but they're not interested in a egalitarian solution. This is why [00:16:00] we call them reactionary, right? You know, these terms come and go.
Ejeris Dixon: Right.
Isaac Ontiveros: But I'd like to think for those of us who are very much proponents of some very deep social change, there are movements, there's historical movements, and I think we see this in our own country, we just saw this in the election results.
There are movements who are committed to Fighting back against change, right? They're, they're reactionary. The social progress itself, if we can use that term without thinking of it in too linear of a way is a problem and it's a problem for the more rigid. anti egalitarian, exploitive social relationships that, that they would like to keep in place.
I think where we see this stuff kind of play out popularly is these economic anxieties, these social anxieties aren't contained in this or that political ideology or this or that [00:17:00] geography they spread around. And I, and I think we're dealing with long, decades long crises, and we're also dealing with decades long contestations over power and over the distribution of power.
Ejeris Dixon: What I think is really important and interesting when we're talking about reactionary movements is that people are kind of sold messages that aren't Actually rooted in reality. So it's like, um, there's this piece around scapegoating that is connected to it. So people are having real economic issues, right?
And part of, I think the problem with the election is that sometimes people weren't talking to people about their actual economic issues. Yes. Groceries are still very fucking high. That's a problem, you know, like I've never paid this much for eggs. That's a problem. Right.
Isaac Ontiveros: People are buying lots of eggs.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah, but, but it's also like somehow like eggs. Like I remember when eggs were 3, right. [00:18:00] And, and they're not anymore, but so there's this piece around, Oh, you are worried about your economics. It's the immigrants fault. You are worried about this. It's so and so's fault. And if you join me, we push against all this progress.
We push against all these people who have rights, who aren't you, who are stealing your resources. And that's how we get you back. And unfortunately, these people just get had. It's not. True, right? It's not true. And there's this piece around the intersection of reducing government services and using private funds like in schools and healthcare.
And there's also this increased focus on globalization. It's a place where kind of Republican and Democratic economic policy starts to look pretty similar. So people can lose their jobs. Unions have less power. And there's this connection where people's economic prospects get worse under neoliberalism, and it can lead them to seek an [00:19:00] answer.
And, uh, I was reading Robert Paxton's book, The Anatomy of Fascism, that really talks about how socialists or unions and fascists are all trying to organize the same people. Right. They're all trying to organize the working class. They're all trying to organize workers. And sometimes people who would join unions, people who would join kind of socialist movements, join fascist movements because they don't feel that their economic prospects actually got better in the ways that leftists had promised them.
So I'm curious around what do you think drives people or if you've seen people, you know, who get caught up in these kind of reactionary movements? What sparked them to go there, especially when it's against their own kind of economic interests?
Isaac Ontiveros: I was just talking with my mom about this and she, I grew up and she still lives in a place that's very like, I don't know if it's like a MAGA stronghold of any kind.
It's [00:20:00] in a coastal town in California, but it's conservative. You know, it's a, it's a conservative semi rural kind of setting and, you know, she's talking to me about how much people are making choices based on anxiety, right? And I think you named it where some of them are completely grounded and legitimate.
Right. Economic anxieties. If you're a working class person, things cost more for you. Yeah. You are worried about your paycheck more. You are more likely to work more than one job, et cetera, et cetera.
Ejeris Dixon: And your rent goes up
Isaac Ontiveros: and your wages stay the same. Yeah. Or, you know, a bad health experience away from losing your mortgage, even if you're a homeowner.
Right.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah.
Isaac Ontiveros: So you're walking around with that anxiety, especially in, in a country like the United States. In the world we live in but in the United States we also live in this long wake. You and [00:21:00] I probably have mentors who were involved in very serious, very broad left movements. Whether it was in the United States or outside of the United States.
And those movements were f Fiercely crushed, they were crushed by right wing forces. They were crushed by liberal forces. And in its wake, you had this kind of neo liberal political and social order emerge, right? And I think in what you just laid out, where there was a sort of reconfiguration of economics and financial system, there is also a ways in which the ability of left organizations, the ability of unions to gain power.
membership to have a political impact contest for governing power was severely diminished. So where do folks go in this country? Also, there's the long unfinished business of racial justice. So those anxieties are always, those economic [00:22:00] anxieties are always going to be racialized in some way, shape, or form.
Those economic anxieties are going to be gendered in some way, shape, or form and enter. these MAGA folks, right? Who are like, Hey, remember when it was all good? Even if it wasn't all good.
Ejeris Dixon: Even if it wasn't all good, even for people who it was never all good for.
Isaac Ontiveros: Yeah. But you know, I was reading before we're talking, I was like this definition or Mussolini talking about fascism and Mussolini kind of talked about it in these ways where he's like, He, he, he really embraced like the mythical qualities of fascism in some ways.
He's like, we believe in romanticism and heroics and things like this. And so when you're anxious, when you're down and out, or when you're anxious and you're not down and out, the MAGA movement has a lot of well to do middle class and rich people in it. Yeah. But if you're just carrying around this anxiety and a political formation comes along and And says, I'm not going to bother with what's [00:23:00] real.
I'm going to talk about a past that may or may not have existed. I'm going to talk about a present that may or may not existed. I'm going to talk about a future that may or may not exist. I'm going to offer you this ability to kind of let your most vicious dreams run wild. Yeah. You know, people are there for it.
Ejeris Dixon: I mean, it almost feels like a negative way to get people to lean into hope. In this, in a terrible way, like in the inverse sense, right. Meaning even if that is not true in your family or your lineage, cause there are many people and it's not as simple as people of color or not. It's like, there are many people who, if they go back years and years, they're looking at folks who had less and less and less, what people are doing is they're hoping for.
Like, I want things to be better for me now. And these people said that we can make things better for me now. Right? So it is, is this really like inverse.
Isaac Ontiveros: That's like dangerous hope.
Ejeris Dixon: It's violent hope, which [00:24:00] unfortunately seemed to be going together. Really well right now.
Isaac Ontiveros: Yeah. Um, I mean, we should also be clear to that.
Yes, there's that. But again, these movements are not organic and no coincidence that this vision of this mythical past that we could get there. Lo and behold, the destination substantiates actually existing. social and economic hierarchies. So yeah, the rich stay rich folks, you know, things like this. So the folks that are kind of driving this stuff are in a drive for power.
They're certainly expressing anxieties, but they're also in a drive for power that has everything to do with their economic and political positions. So
Ejeris Dixon: absolutely. And they can manipulate the desires of people because fascists are organizing fascists. It's our movements in their own way, um, to organize towards, you know, cause like Trump [00:25:00] was never poor.
Trump was never working class. Trump is resonating with people who are in the working class, but that's not where he comes from. That's not his life, but there is a whole movement of people who want things to be better for themselves, who are helping him gain power.
Isaac Ontiveros: So yeah, he wins. And what happens within the next 24 hours?
Stock prices surge. Yeah. Where do they surge? They surge in like credit card companies, banks, private prison stocks go up. And then also these billionaires, a couple of handfuls of billionaires, we see their wealth rise by like 65 billion in one day, one of the, one of the Greatest rises in wealth. So we also have to remember to like you were saying the role of elites in organizing these movements that do have a cross class and sometimes seem to have a very working class character that always, always [00:26:00] there is these capitalist elites driving and benefiting from these movements.
Ejeris Dixon: So one of the things that I'm really thinking about the context of these times and what, as you said, these reactionary movements create, they create like a really stark sense of an us and a them, you know, wherever, wherever you fit. And one thing that we say here a lot that we've been talking about is kind of, it takes these kind of very broad movements to defeat fascism.
So in this context of us and them, I want to talk to you about like, kind of the types of collaborations that are needed in defeating fascism and what do they look like? What does it take to organize them? You've been in like, you're in an alliance now, you've been in all these different types of collaborations.
What's needed to defeat fascism? fascism from a perspective of organizing.
Isaac Ontiveros: Okay. So yeah, that's like the million dollar question now. Right. And the question, you know, has changed even in the past week.
Ejeris Dixon: [00:27:00] Yes.
Isaac Ontiveros: So there's a lot of talk this we need to build the United front to defeat fascism. Now, when we say United front.
You know, some folks could be like, well, actually United Front referred to X and Y thing in the 1920s. And what you're really talking about is a popular front or whatever. So yes,
all the debates. Yeah.
Isaac Ontiveros: So let's respect these historical particularities of these terms, but maybe for the sake of argument, what we're talking about here is building a broad front.
To defeat fascism, and I think these broad fronts have emerged, they've won, they've lost over time, but some of the elements and I think things now that we are dealing with MAGA having increased substantially, um, You know, exponentially it's, it's a, it's governing power in this country, I think pulling out some of these similarities of movements across time and space is a good idea.
So I think one is when we think of a broad [00:28:00] front, we need to think about it truly as broad. So you've probably been involved in like community coalitions. Yeah. are trying to pass a reform or stop something terrible from happening. And these coalitions, we, we like to think of them as, you know, it's broad, we're bringing in all kinds of other folks, but how broad are they is also, is often a question.
I've been in coalitions where it's all progressive and left organizations, right? I think when we're talking about a broad front to defeat fascism, what we're talking about is Mobilizing and engaging across as much of the social and political spectrum as possible. We're talking about building a coalition.
Yes, like a coalition of forces of unlikely alliances whose aim isn't to win a single reform or stop a single thing, but to win a broader I'm just going to use the word here, a broader [00:29:00] war over broader political and social power. So I think it's interesting, you know, the term front has a military connotation, but you know, we're not going to faint if we use some militaristic language here or analogies, I'd like to think is that what we're talking about is a capture of terrain.
Sometimes like but right now we're thinking politically and What we're confronting now is, you know, in the past years, what's been on the table to confront MAGA has been, how do we build a front that includes literally the withering amounts of Republicans who are anti Trump Republicans all the way to street fighting anti fascists?
How do we build that front? Now, do we actually build that front or is that front kind of exist? So then a question, it kind of exists. It's not [00:30:00] like we all had a meeting and there was, you know, anti Trump generals and Antifa and everybody in between sitting at a table. This thing kind of formed organically.
And I think for left and progressive folks, the question has been, how do we situate there? How do we, uh, Act in alliance with folks across the spectrum. And I think where we're at now, like literally this week is, you know, there's a lot of questioning and re questioning that alliance, given that the kind of.
leadership of the most urgent battle in that war against fascism was around the election and the kind of leading force that many leftists and progressives agreed to ally with. These kind of neo liberal corporate Democrats were kind of the leading force. They were defeated. So the United Front didn't work.
This battle didn't work. And that's, I guess, what's like the question. I think that's on the table now. Okay, the leading force of the [00:31:00] United Front in this election was defeated yet. We still are confronting a fascist advance that we will need a broad front to confront and defeat still. So what sort of questions, what sort of calculations do we need to make in a relatively quick way to step up to that task?
How does that front. Rearticulate itself.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah. And reorganize. Reorganize.
Isaac Ontiveros: And how do those of us who are part of it in a very conscious way, um, make very conscious and smart and strategic and tactical choices in this moment. Unfortunately, being in a, in a very defensive footing.
Ejeris Dixon: I mean, so what I'm understanding from what you're saying is Kind of traditionally to pass a bill or a law, like we'll have multiple organizations, but these organizations will agree on a lot.
Right. And so maybe they'd be like a local community group, a progressive [00:32:00] union, a progressive church, all of those types of things, but people who would have a lot of interconnectedness and the types of collaborations that defeat fascism. Yeah,
Isaac Ontiveros: I think, you know, we could read articles and stuff and it's like an alliance versus a front versus a coalition.
And I think maybe the the lines are a little bit more blurred and and maybe should be. But yeah, I think that that's that's right.
Ejeris Dixon: And so one of the things I'm really thinking about is Underneath that, we have a whole bunch of people with really different norms, different cultures and ways that they may or may not agree.
And in this time, folks may be feeling particularly, um, I've been doing, I've done a lot of work in the past around like unsafe versus uncomfortable, but it might be hard to feel safe right now, outside of your own, kind of either your own immediate community, your own political groups, the group that you know to be safe.
A lot of us talk [00:33:00] about these things called political homes, right? A place where, like, you have a lot of community, a lot of connection, you know? So for me, as, like, a Black queer person, it might be, like, a group of Black queer people or a group of queer people of color or those types of things. And so there's this piece around that we've been really navigating with our, like, how do you get all of these people in a room
who may
Ejeris Dixon: have all of these differences and feel particularly triggered right now, right?
Particularly worried right now, concerned, like unsafe, like the threats against undocumented folks, the threats against immigrants, the threats against trans folks, the threats against black people, like all of this is happening. The
Isaac Ontiveros: continued genocide in Palestine, right? The impacts of that on folks here.
Yeah, exactly. All
Ejeris Dixon: of that is happening right now and then what needs to happen is a level of uniting with people with a far broader agenda, culture, all of these pieces. How have you seen that [00:34:00] happen successfully?
Isaac Ontiveros: This is the question and I think this question is like. At its most potent right now with this defeat Harris's defeat.
So I like this block and build framework. I think other of your guests have spoke to it. Yep. So I won't go into it. Folks could check out convergence magazine. They have a ton of resources that kind of animate the concept as it were, but I like this block and build framework. Framework for this reason in relationship to your question, because I think this is a moment where we can cultivate and encourage a certain sort of, you know, rigor.
and tap into a certain sort of strength and creativity.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah.
Isaac Ontiveros: That we value, right? Like our movements and the culture of our movement values these things very much. So, right. And we can tap into [00:35:00] it and think about this idea that like hard and messy work. Certainly does feel disempowering and making an alliance with somebody who I would hope would be our enemy sometime in the future and certainly has been the past feels disgusting.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah.
Isaac Ontiveros: There's, there's no joy there. There's no, there's, there's hardly a sense of empowerment, but, and I think we've learned this from those who have made the road before us. Thanks. If we can make these hard choices, if we can study up and sturdy up around those hard choices, and we make them in a thoughtful and strategic way, and we find that they, in fact, don't break us, that we are Do this dirty work.
Yeah. It's an invitation for us to think about what we're capable of by making [00:36:00] these very hard, uncomfortable, terrible choices and not being crushed by them just because they may be. We feel like they run against our values or our, our most blossomed politics. Lo and behold, I wonder it's like exercising or it's like, I didn't think I could lift that and it really sucked to lift that thing, but I did lift it and now I know that I can.
And I'm changed and my, I'm, Not to use overly ableist language here, my muscles are stronger for it, and my horizons are expanded. What else can I do? What else can we do that is difficult and hard, but that allows us to live another day and fight another day? And in that struggle to defend and block and build and fight for breathing air, We're building things, we're building skills, we're building an ability to negotiate and understand our conditions, to [00:37:00] negotiate and understand erstwhile allies, to negotiate and understand our enemies.
These things are building our power and our ability to make complex decisions in the moment. But also kind of concretizes some, I would hope, can add some like contour and texture and something concrete to our visions in the future. And I think in this country, there's a lot of examples. I mean, you and I know each other, probably met each other maybe first vis a vis abolitionist politics.
Yeah. To me, that's. Thanks. That's abolitionist politics. How are you rearticulating the potential of a certain struggle by pouring into it in this certain sort of way, how you transforming a struggle that is not pretty, that is not fun, that is not cool, that is not sexy, how are you by getting up in [00:38:00] it as it were changing its potential and changing yourself and changing your potential.
And when I say yourself. I don't mean as an individual, I mean ourselves.
Ejeris Dixon: Right, and the contours of like our organizing terrain, the contours of our communities. One of the things I'm really thinking about, it sounds like organizing for survival under these conditions looks different, right? It looks different.
It requires discomfort. It doesn't have to be permanent discomfort. It can be like, almost like you're saying in this sense of the exercise metaphor, we dip our toe in the water, we come back, we dip, you know, but the challenge is, is that, a lot of. the communities that we exist in that people would call their kind of like home based community or their home based organization, the place that is most aligned with them is not large enough by itself to defeat fascism.
Isaac Ontiveros: Yeah, we can't do this stuff by ourselves. And it's a sad fact that we can't just do it with our friends and we can't just do it with our friends of friends. We're gonna [00:39:00] have to do some of this with people who are not not our friends, you know,
Ejeris Dixon: not our friends, or maybe we only agree on one thing, right?
We may agree on one thing. And I think there's a piece around a lot of us building our tolerance for temporary broad alliances. Right. And for strategy, strategy, meaning that we shift into a strategy that works for this moment, right? So what is the strategy for navigating the next two years of the Trump administration until the midterms, until perhaps there can be more taking back of the, uh, of Congress and building power there so that we have a more safe, uh, Terrain for, for where people are.
And it, I think the other pieces around how do we allow each other to be in community doing different sets of work? Right. Cause there are some people who are like, that's not my ministry. You know, the work of the broad alliance, that's not my ministry. That's not me. But how do [00:40:00] we treat each other? Well, like, how do we tolerate each other using different strategies?
and trust that we have similar values or, or do you even think that that's possible?
Isaac Ontiveros: No, I think that that's right. I think that's right. And you know, that's not our ministry. And you know, I guess people of faith actually to use that, that term and it's, it's faith, uh, uh, origins or context. I'm trying to think of a religious tradition, and I can't think of a single one that wouldn't say, you know, sometimes you pick your ministry and sometimes the ministry picks you.
Yeah. Right.
Isaac Ontiveros: There's that old quote from our profoundly bearded German mentor, uh, you know, we can and do make history, right? But we don't get to make it in conditions of our choosing.
Yes.
Isaac Ontiveros: And, and I think being humbled by that fact is appropriate, but I also think per what you were just saying, [00:41:00] being curious and excited about that fact.
Is also, you know, something to explore. It's something that our predecessors and ancestors explored, right? You know, Antonio Gramsci, you know, the Italian communist revolutionary anti fascist, you know, in the earliest, earliest. Emergences of, of capital F fascism, you know, from a fascist prison has this thing that I think about a lot, like literally these, these past few days, as I'm like filled with anxiety about this moment, I'm going to paraphrase it.
And I could send you the exact quote, but he's like, you know, We like to imagine ourselves as the plowman of history, right? So it's like this heroic image of pushing the plow and changing history. We like to imagine ourselves as the plowman of history, but there's also the manure. And perhaps, In some moments [00:42:00] and perhaps in this moment, our role is the manure, right?
We're seeding the ground. We're doing the shit work so that the next generations, hopefully coming soon, can push that plow. Right. But can we not just be like, wah, wah, it's all shit work, but being like manure and shit are two different things. Right. And, and if we can understand doing this hard.
unglamorous, thankless work. Yeah. Uh, but if we could imagine it as laying the ground, um, fertilizing the soil and that being absolutely necessary to any of the changes that we also Could and should spend time dreaming about in our home organizations, in our, in our communities. So I guess I'm also making that pitch for a broader and deeper vision.
Also [00:43:00] that helps us understand the choices that we can and should make. Given that we can't do this on our own. And we also can't lose ourselves in doing it also.
Ejeris Dixon: Yeah.
Isaac Ontiveros: And we don't need to.
Ejeris Dixon: It feels like a lot of what's really important then to, to continue with what you're saying, how do we fortify ourselves to do what needs to be done in shitty times?
And if that's the goal, there are folks who listen to this podcast, who are connected to organizations who are activists, but there are other people who care about fascism and are trying to figure out how where they fit. So in times where we are the plowman, right, where we're trying to figure things out, where we know the work may be difficult and hard.
What are the action steps that you recommend people take to both move things forward and to take care of themselves in the process?
Isaac Ontiveros: Well, I think you already named them. Like we got to get together with our folks for those of us who are in [00:44:00] organizations. Well, I would say join an organization, right. If you can, um, because Again, you can't do this as individuals.
That's not how history works, right? And this is a moment like all moments that are pitched in the struggle against fascism where and this is a hard one because of Trump's popular mandate from this past election. So you know, Trump won the electoral college. He won the popular vote. But more people didn't vote that, you know, more eligible voters didn't vote than voted for either Harris or Trump.
I think that's the stat as it stands today. Maybe it'll change before this goes to air. So for our organizations, we need to think about that. So one is for the, for those of us in organizations, we need to not turn inward. But recalibrate our understanding of the United front that we are a part of understand our base, go to our base, [00:45:00] listen and learn from our base.
Probably we need to figure out how to broaden our base and empower our base. And I think that also includes thinking about those concentric circles of folks, particularly in the working class, particularly in parts of the working class who are, um, most. vulnerable to the violence of fascism. Yeah. Um, how are we participating in that broad front?
How are we touching folks? How are we organizing with folks? How are we supporting the broad activities that it's going to take to overcome? I think a lot about the struggle to. Abolish apartheid in South Africa. And I would argue that was an anti fascist struggle. I would argue that the apartheid regime was a fascist regime, like many colonial regimes, like this idea that, um, you know, this united front approach of that anti colonial struggle, [00:46:00] that anti fascist struggle was very keen on figuring out what were the activities.
That all sectors of society could be involved in and whether or not you had a robust movement in your city or town, what were things that you could do? And as an organizer, how did you keep that broad set of activity in mind? I can recall being a kid where I grew up. There was not big old left progressive movements, quite the contrary, but I can recall like my parents being like, we're not going to buy this or that or go to this or that gas station.
In support of the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, it was a small activity that these folks, my folks were doing as individuals, but that didn't come from nowhere. These organizations had really thought about the breadth that was needed and they thought about how far and deep that struggle could go globally.
So I think we need to [00:47:00] think similarly. It's not going to be easy. We need to, in the immediate, again, there's a recalibration of this united front to defeat MAGA, given the Democratic Party's loss. Um, for those of us on the left end of that, Front. We need to think about how disappointed we are. We need to have our critiques.
And like you said, though, we need to remember that we still aren't big enough to do this ourselves. So some of these tough choices, some of these tough alliances, and some of this manure work is going to be in our future. So in that case, we need to figure out a way to educate and organize. one another and ourselves to step into the moment, not in some macho way, but in a forceful way, right?
And this, you know, like Asada said, [00:48:00] like love each other and take care of each other, but doing the work at the same time. Isaac,
Ejeris Dixon: this was great. I'm so happy that you took the time with us today to discuss what are the collaborations we need to defeat MAGA and how do we do the hard work and thank you for coming on the Fascism Barometer.
Isaac Ontiveros: Thank you for having me. Thank you for doing this show. It's such a great show. Like I've listened to all the episodes and I hope everybody does too. It's such a great resource and I'm really grateful to your leadership.
Ejeris Dixon: Thank you.
So we've reached the end of today's episode. And I feel the pressure letting up a bit. Do you know that you help fight fascism just by listening to The Barometer? If you want to know more about Isaac's work, more on collaborations, [00:49:00] coalitions, and broad fronts, and how to take action, we've placed all this information in the resource hub on our website.
And I have a special ask for you all, and that's to donate and let your folks know to donate to The Fascism Barometer at our website fascismbarometer. org. so that we can continue and expand our work. We appreciate you joining us and we're hard at work monitoring the fascism barometer and together we can keep fascism at bay.
Watch the skies and subscribe to this feed as we have two more episodes left in the season and when you share this show with a friend you've got it, you fight fascism. Our producer is Phil Serkis. Our theme is by Meklit Hediro. This podcast is a project of Ejeri Labs. And I'm your Movement Meteorologist, Ejeris Dixon.
See you next time on the Fascism [00:50:00] Barometer.